Topic: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Here's the concept description for the Saga of Vinland PW setting. Please give any comments you have.

Kryigerof wrote:

Concept description: The Saga of Vinland

This is a variation of the New World concept. It's about the Vikings, who around year 1000 visited the shores of North America. The campaign is about exploring the lush new world, building settlements and encountering the natives. (The real Vikings didn't really get a foothold in the new land, but who knows, maybe the stories and history books are wrong. Maybe they, in fact, had a settlement that lasted for decades forgotten in the mists of history.)

Pros of this concept:

1) Unlike the Great Voyages era and colonisation of Australia, the Viking technology was medieval (they didn't need a compass because they were foolhardy madmen - very often their ships got forever lost at the sea, but some got real lucky). Thus, no modification to real history would be needed simply because of the medieval models and items.

2) New characters would logically be settlers from Greenland, Norway etc. Characters whose players quit could simply be assumed to have been killed by wilderbeasts, Indians etc.

3) Ability to start small and expand the world as the story progresses.

4) Logical source of conflict between Vikings and Indians, as well as possible other Viking colonies.

Cons:
1) The traffic between the old and new world wasn't too common, so if new characters keep popping up one at a time, now and then, the "I came with the latest ship" explanation becomes stretchy.

2) The land contained nothing much more than woods and Indians (or "skrälings" as the Vikings called them), so it might be difficult to come up with interesting findings for the explorers.

3) Female characters. Even though Viking women were somewhat more free than those in Central Europe, warfare and adventuring as well as most of the exciting things, was considered men's job. But this is a problem with any alternate history setting.

4 -> N) You tell me.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

4) Seems unlikely we'll be able to play races besides humans. (tiefling and elves fan)

Just to comment on this setting:

I quite like the idea. One question: Will there be magic/magical beasts in this setting? If yes, why, if no why not wink

I think the inclussion of some sorts of supernatual creatures might be interresting...as long as they are extreemly rare (ie only pop up when releated to a "big" storyline)

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Thank you.

I suppose magic would fit well into this story provided it can be modified somehow to fit the cultures present. Like magic wielded by priests of the Norseman mythology, skräling (Indian) shamans or Christian priests. However the default D&D "cast ten spells a day" style would not be for my liking. Magic would still have to retain its mystery. Maybe this could be achieved by somehow completely excluding low level spells from the game, making magic rare and powerful and only for those who've spent a great deal of time studying its mysteries. Or you could simply make all magic GM controlled.

Same goes for magical beasts - if you manage to find ones that fit one of the mythologies, then yes, it'd have a place in the setting.

EDIT: Concerning this, I just came up with a funny idea: tie different spells into corpses of animals so you can "sacrifice them to the gods" to gain some magical benefit. Everyday animal entails could perhaps do stuff like bring back 1 HP while sacrificing a magical beast would give some great advantages. Of course, only a well learned Norseman priest, Indian shaman could do this, so the things should have level requirements for use. This could be the only way to cast spells - just forbid the normal magic usage.

Now, how would miracles work with Christian missionaries? Any ideas?

Last edited by Kryigerof (2006-11-14 20:31:35)

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Bards would be logical additions, if I'm not off on the timeline. Galdr magicians were all about singing. Of course, they wouldn't have the same traits as bards in FR, but the class is workable.

Beasts would be interesting if taken from native American and old Norse mythologies, yes. It's mainly a question of being smart and selective in how to use them. Plowing them into the scenario à la FR would be bad, but having a wendigo show up as a plot device could be very effective.

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Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

So what do you do in this setting? To answer the question I asked in the Golden City thread, here's the things you should be able to do without GM interference. I might be going a little deep into details here, but the point is to clarify what style of gameplay I was thinking about.

All of these things are meant to be done in a slow pace while roleplaying. Many of them would probably have longish waiting periods like repairing in Seed, to give the player a chance to chat in peace. However, they should also be made complex enough to make play interesting.

1) Get food to yourself and your family. It should be made important that you get enough food, because getting your basic living is one important challenge in a settlers life. Food could be gained at least in the following ways:

1a) Hunting. Not your generic wilderness grind but one where stealth and preciceness are key. It should be relatively easy to make most animals run instead of fighting when attacked, making it important to sneak or plan your hunt (such as chasing the animal toward another group of hunters). Of course, some animals, like bears would have to be fought, but these would be special, great hunts.

1b) Fishing. What a better way to learn to know your clanmate than to spend a day in a boat together, waiting for fish to catch? (Must check out how the Vikings actually fished.)

1c) Foraging. The woods are full of food for those who know what to look for. Leaves, roots, sweet berries just wait to be picked and eaten. The availability of berries could depend on the season, to make it necessary to plan for the winter.

1d) Farming. At some point of the game you might start growing crops in fields. Any ideas how this would work?

2) Crafting. We'll definately need to get our hands on some sort of a crafting system. The PCs will have to build everything from scratch (apart from what they brought with them).  This is so that there is no  You'd craft at least the following:

2a) Buildings. Not quite sure how to implement this, though it would start by cutting trees. Then maybe carry them all to the site and do some "house building work" or something. The creation of the actual house would probably have to be done by a GM.

2b) Food. You'd have to prepare the food before eating it.

2c) Clothes. Mostly out of furs.

2d) Weapons. Mostly spears etc, unless an iron supply is found.

2e) Tools to create all of the above.

3) Explore the surroundings. The woodlands should be made interesting in some ways, so it's not only "another tract of forest". Maybe by adding better hunting/fishing/foraging spots, holy locations (like erratic boulders etc). And of course as many special locations as the creators can come up with, such as native camps.

EDIT:
4) Maybe warfare against natives or other Norse groups if it comes to that. But fights should not be daily grind affairs.

This would only be the everyday life, of course. GM controlled stories could include pretty high-flying mythological stuff too.

Last edited by Kryigerof (2006-11-15 20:09:50)

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

The Vinland concept appeals to me far more than the Golden City idea. Both have potential, but Vinland would be much easier to set up and build in stages. I've also enjoyed playing the Cultures games, so Viking settlers is something I already know I'd like.

The crafting/gathering system seems a solid one. In D&D 3rd edition, there are NPC "Commoner" classes, and skills that apply to none-combat/adventuring situations. Does NWN2 have the potential to add these? Or to modify existing classes with extra skills?

The nature of the Skraelings should be defined as well. In the real world, these were Native American tribes. In this fantasy alternate world, they could just as easily be orcs or whatever. It would certainly add an element of combat to things if that were the case- certain areas would have a chance of encountering random Skraeling bands, and GMs could run adventures with full-scale fights. Of course, I'd say that such things should be kept rare, with the potential for a diplomatic solution as well. Historically, the Skraelings wiped out the Viking settlers because they were more numerous and the Vikings were cut off from their homelands by the long sea voyages. The same thing almost happened with the first European settlers five hundred years later. Long-term survival of a settlement will almost certainly require friendly relations with a nearby tribe.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

For the moment this setting appeals to me the most as well.... that extra bit of information on what you could do in this setting helped quite a bit!

I like the idea of hunting and in general making sure you survive. The downside is that there will most likely be less politics and stuff like that... but that could come with the addition of more tribes i guess

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

If the setting is a realistic one, then at first everything will be a neverending grind of gathering food and building shelters. As the settlement becomes more established (and more players join, or NPCs are added) we should be able to spend less time worrying about day-to-day survival.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Tantavalist wrote:

The Vinland concept appeals to me far more than the Golden City idea. Both have potential, but Vinland would be much easier to set up and build in stages. I've also enjoyed playing the Cultures games, so Viking settlers is something I already know I'd like.

True. This kind of projects are usually way more difficult than they seem at start, at least for the inexperienced (which I suppose most of us are). That's why it's best, in my opinion, to start without too great ambition (not to say Vinland would be the easiest to implement either, with the crafting and all).

Tantavalist wrote:

The crafting/gathering system seems a solid one. In D&D 3rd edition, there are NPC "Commoner" classes, and skills that apply to none-combat/adventuring situations. Does NWN2 have the potential to add these? Or to modify existing classes with extra skills?

In NWN there were several custom crafting systems. The one used in Narfell had a dialogue-based system that kept track of individual players' crafting skills.

Tantavalist wrote:

The nature of the Skraelings should be defined as well. In the real world, these were Native American tribes. In this fantasy alternate world, they could just as easily be orcs or whatever. It would certainly add an element of combat to things if that were the case- certain areas would have a chance of encountering random Skraeling bands, and GMs could run adventures with full-scale fights.

Why should the skrälings be anything but Native Americans just like in the real world? I'd like to take the "alternateness" from the idea that superstitions are real (and that the Vikings might actually thrive in the new world), not swap real world things into fantasy conventions.

If we, for more combat opportunities, really need a "monster race", I'm sure we could find some mythological gnome people or simply an aggressive Native American tribe. (According to the LARP I was in, the dominant tribe in the area were the Mik-Maks, a rather peaceful people. But the more aggressive Iroquees (or one of the other aggressive tribes, I'm not sure which) were not too far to the south (well, thousands of miles probably, but little things like this could well be wrong in the history books:)).

Tantavalist wrote:

Of course, I'd say that such things should be kept rare, with the potential for a diplomatic solution as well. Historically, the Skraelings wiped out the Viking settlers because they were more numerous and the Vikings were cut off from their homelands by the long sea voyages. The same thing almost happened with the first European settlers five hundred years later. Long-term survival of a settlement will almost certainly require friendly relations with a nearby tribe.

I totally agree. The difficulties of such peace would be one of the great story opportunities. After all, the Native Americans don't have any actual need to keep them there.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Oluf wrote:

For the moment this setting appeals to me the most as well.... that extra bit of information on what you could do in this setting helped quite a bit!

I like the idea of hunting and in general making sure you survive. The downside is that there will most likely be less politics and stuff like that... but that could come with the addition of more tribes i guess

Where there are opinions there are politics. And for example, when it comes to the pesky Skräling dogs, there would likely be differing opinions on how to handle it. And who says the settlers have to be one happy community? There could be powerplay between rival families, for instance, and the position of the tribe (clan? village?) chief might have some competition. And the way the Norsemen made decicions was also a very nice one: When there was something to decide, like what to do to a criminal, the men (and women in our case, however we solve that issue) of the village would all gather in the center of the village and start arguing until the things were settled. The chief had final deciding power, of course, but he wasn't supposed to make decisions solo.

As for player vs NPC politics, there'll be the Norse vs Skräling situation as well.

As for downsides, another would be that if we're fighting for survival, not-surviving should probably be a possibility. Permadeath? Or some other method to make sure getting your daily food actually matters? (In Seed, we were fighting for our survival only RP-wise, which worked to some extent, but it did take away any feeling of danger.)

Tantavalist wrote:

If the setting is a realistic one, then at first everything will be a neverending grind of gathering food and building shelters. As the settlement becomes more established (and more players join, or NPCs are added) we should be able to spend less time worrying about day-to-day survival.

True, about the grind too. But grinding doesn't have to be the "keep clicking monsters" chore it usually is. In crafting, I vouch for a system similar to Seed's pre-injury repair gameplay - you set your character to do something, like build a tool, and then focus on roleplaying it and chatting with your comrades while the time bar is filling up. That, I hope, would make these chores feel similar to just sitting by the campfire, except you're actually achieving something.

On a side note, if implementable, some jobs like house building might require several people working on it to make any progress at all.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Kryigerof wrote:

After all, the Native Americans don't have any actual need to keep them there.

Actually, they will have quite a lot to offer any native tribes which bother to befriend them. In the real world, the two biggest trade items that the Native Americans wanted from white settlers were metal tools/weapons and alchohol, neither of which was made by the tribes. The Vikings could produce both of these. And unlike the white settlers of the real world who came centuries later, Viking technology isn't so far ahead of the natives that they couldn't learn to manufacture it themselves.

Friendly relations with the Vinlanders has the potential to jump the Mik-Maks (or whoever) from the stone age to the iron age in two or three generations.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

If I recall correctly, the Viking version of democracy was to allow anyone who owned a weapon to vote in council. In Yorkshire (North-East England) the local councils were called "Wapentaks" (which I believe translates as "counting the weapons") until the 16th century at least. This does away with the problem of women voting- anyone who carries a weapon or has warriors pledged to their service has votes in the council.

Last edited by Tantavalist (2006-11-16 19:11:50)

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Interesting. Though it probably wasn't the same everywhere, at every time - a lot can happen in 600 years. The way it was introduced to us, there was no voting involved, simply a big public discussion led by the chief. Of course, they likely made some assumptions as well (though Harmaasudet (Greywolves in English) usually know their stuff when it comes to historical accuracy).

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

There's also the fact that, being in Yorkshire, things might have worked differently than in the councils back home in Scandinavia. There is evidence that, in the north of England, the Viking conquerers adopted some of the ways of the native Anglo-Saxons (and said blend of Norse/Anglo-Saxon ways produced a cultural divide between northern and southern England which lingers to this day). Plus, being invaders, the Vikings that landed in Britain were probably the more militant members of Norse society- so for them, a method of governing where your political influence is directly linked to how many warriors support you probably made more sense. And even the place the Vikings in question came from could have influenced it- what outsiders collectively called "Vikings" actually referred to several different countries. North-East England was conquered by the Danish, wheras the Viking who took over the North-West came from Norway, and there is definate evidence of differences between the two groups.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Just a little thought concerning hunting: We could play down the grind aspect more by making finding the animals more challenging than killing them. We could do this by having the animals leave markers on the ground that could be seen with the spot/tracking skill. Also, we could designate certain places as animal drinking spots and have the animals go to those locations on a regular basis (using some sort of a thirst counter perhaps). This would emphasize the need to know the wild - you catch a lot more game if you know a few of these drinking spots.

Re: PW Concept: Saga of Vinland

Tantavalist wrote:

The crafting/gathering system seems a solid one. In D&D 3rd edition, there are NPC "Commoner" classes, and skills that apply to none-combat/adventuring situations. Does NWN2 have the potential to add these? Or to modify existing classes with extra skills?

We could probably create a separate dialogue-based system for the extra classes and allow tranfering XP between it and the official leveling system.