Topic: RP Conventions

I'd like to take the chance to start a discussion about the actual conventions we use when we RP in SoR. This should not really be seen as a way to force anything on anyone, but more of like a discussion about how we want this to be.

First off. We seem to use the system we also used in Seed. IC as much as possible, and then (()) when OOC. That goes for our talk in /around and /tell. Now, there is also the /region and /universe chat channels. These, I recently learned were meant to be OOC. There is a terrible, immersion breaking cacophony of noise coming from these channels, so when I was told how to close them, I happily did (rightclick in the opper bar of the chatwindow, and select what channels you wish to be able to hear). That improved atmosphere enormously, as you can then only hear those close by, which is realistic. I can only recommend all to do this.

As for /tell, I use it to whisper things to others, certainly not as an universal, instant telepathic connection.

Now, then we have the /team and /guild channels. And these are the channels I wish to speak about here, mainly.

We can do the following things with these, to fit in RP:

1. Use them as they seem to be intended, for OOC coordination and chat
2. Come up with an ingame explanation as to why we can hear and speak across distances with Team/Guild members, and keep both channels IC
3. Completely ignore the existence of these channels.

I am quite opposed to '1' myself. It breaks immersion and goes against the RP we want to create. It is a known thing (and made fun of in The Noob wink) that RP'ers are much less effective than other players at getting things done. They have to stand and talk, sometimes for hours, before anything gets done. Even in battle, they have to do what their char feels like, not what is most efficient. Coordinating atttacks, travels, 'resurrections', or whatever, OOC in such channels just feel deeply wrong to me. Personally I want an atmosphere where I am only my char, without metagaming for efficiency or ease of things. I want things to be hard too. A lot of RP gets stripped away by having OOC organizing channels.

So, that was my arguments against '1', and I hope most agree. In any case my char will not by using these channels like this.

Now '2' is the sensible diplomatical solution to the two extremes. Esme suggested for instance that our magicians established telepathic channels, and that's the IG reason we can communicate with eachother over /tell, /team and /guild. Other IG reasons, like finding an artifact, could explain this. Then, we'd have channels that were IC, where we could RP and coordinate IC. Rather like /ring in Seed, at least where TM was concerned, as we used that heavily for private speak and organizing, all IC.

Solution '2' is workable, we will retain some efficiency, and we will have a lot of RP and a feeling of being together in this.

And finally '3', the most realistic solution. Never to use those channels. I've always been an elitistic RP purist, so this does appeal to me. But it is very difficult, and truthfully it will place some hindrances on RP, particularly when we are in a guild. Imagine organizing things and informing people. We'd have to call meetings for people to attend, and if we had to change orders we'd have to send runners out, looking for people, etc.  Yes, this does actually sound appealing to me, but the problem is: There is a lot of RP we won't have then, and we might lose the feeling of basic 'togetherness'.

Not surprisingly, I am in favor of '3.' if most others are, in that we can then make this work in a challenging way. It's alright I have to be together with people to be able to talk to them, also since there is no IG explanation that is immediately usable for the telepathic communication network.  There are good points to both '2' and '3' I feel. It's a question about what we want, and how we want that.

If however this is too extreme for people, I do understand that, on basis of it limiting RP. Then I'll happily go with '2.'. Just not '1.'. It's a fallback to OOC, and we can use #Seed for that.

Last edited by Darkhawk (2006-10-03 14:32:41)

Re: RP Conventions

Unless someone comes up with an IC explanation for 2 that I can get behind, I'm in favour of 3 as well. I like the idea of actually talking things out. This, of course, assumes that everyone are as RP-focussed as some of us are and aren't going to be annoyed because they can't level effectively.


<Edit> For guilds, though, I suppose it's entirely possible that a guild has something that could explain an IC guild chat, such as magicks! or tecknologicks! so each guild could decide for themselves.</Edit>

Last edited by Ahnion (2006-10-03 14:17:52)

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Re: RP Conventions

I agree keep it IC and use (()) for OOC if need be for all channels.
The telepathic link thing could work for the guild-channel at least and perhaps for the team one too.
Now that I've found the way to turn on the universal and region chatter I will only use tell to whisper or perhaps to tell someone something OOC (still using (()) . My character is not planing to go into magic so taking telepathic contact this way just doesn't seem right to me but I guess more magicaly inclined people could do this.

Artash of the Fyros

Re: RP Conventions

I don't like 2. It just doesn't feel right, and I'm not a big fan of trivial magic solutions that fundamentally change everyday life.

About 1, I see 2 legit reasons to use the channel OOC:
1) to find where the RP is
2) to chat (the same way we sometimes chatted on the TM ring channel, about game mechanics and stuff)

But of these three, number 3 is definately my favourite.

Re: RP Conventions

Okey, my opinion is, disable /region and /universe talking and allways IC other channels.

We need local normal talking and tells for private wispering.  Also we need some channel for instruction, like guild / teams.

Rules: Allways IC if possible. We do have to answer others if they talk to us, even if it's OOC. So we could use (( as doing it)).

Ignoring what's happening and talked around us, because others don't talk how "we" want is rude. That doesn't mean we can't make own rule how to behave, but I don't like the elitist idea ignore anyting what isn't "PURE" ways.

Biggest problem is that this game can't be played without OOC talking. Mostly the problems is causing the experiment, enemy level and skill used level battle system.

I have seen some RPers in other games do so that there is IC talk in different channels and OOC talk in some channels. I'm agaist it. Seen what happens.

Re: RP Conventions

Oh yeah i really enjoyed the game when i turned off region and universer chat as well hehe smile

Now. I enjoy RP. Heck I am only here to RP! SoR has not impressed me enough but i did quite enjoy the RP we had last night! smile
However... It is also a game. Imo it might simply become to hard to organize different things if all is done via local chat and without the use of guild/team chat at all. We could of couse try to minimize the use of these but I dont think it would be wise to simply ignore them. We have to be able to enjoy the game as well.

I am for trying to go with 3) but if things becomes to complicated i dont think we should ignore option 2

Re: RP Conventions

Here's what I think:

Option 3 is just unnecessarily crippling the RP. The combination of magic and technology on Atys is advanced enough to call for more reasoning -not- to have long-distance communication than to have it, at least on the Karavan side. If your character doesn't have a way to communicate remotely with his team or guild, you can move the /p and /g chats into separate tabs or disable them entirely. Basically we all decide for our own characters, yet have a clear and fluent system.

SWG: CL90 Smuggler, Crimson Phoenix Ace, CL90 Engineer, Europe-Chimaera
AoC: L70 Guardian

Re: RP Conventions

I can live with your suggestion Mir, if I get to make one alteration:
There should be an IC reason before you use remote communication.
That is, if you are going to use it, make sure you have a viable reason (technological or magical) that everyone you intend to speak with are aware of and agree on.

The reason I want this is so that these channels don't just become chat sinks. What can be spoken of in the open (or in whispers if necessary) should be done so, because there's more RP that way. Also, we should avoid situations where someone asks "so howcome we can speak this way?" and everyone just goes "iunno."

Oh, and in addition, if you have, say a technological walkie-talkie kind of thing, how about RPing the fact that it's not perfect? It could have distorted sounds, hisses, humming and whatever. We did this in WoW to great effect. Magic communication, on the other hand, could be too direct and semantically confusing. People using terms that mean different things to themselves and saying too much... or assuming the other one knows things they don't by habit.

Last edited by Ahnion (2006-10-04 08:23:11)

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Re: RP Conventions

"Oh, and in addition, if you have, say a technological walkie-talkie kind of thing, how about RPing the fact that it's not perfect? It could have distorted sounds, hisses, humming and whatever. We did this in WoW to great effect. Magic communication, on the other hand, could be too direct and semantically confusing. People using terms that mean different things to themselves and saying too much... or assuming the other one knows things they don't by habit."

Oh now thats an interresting idea smile

Re: RP Conventions

I'd tell we do need an OOC/metagame channel. There are times you just have to ask "I need a fine Quality 40 counterweight with good sap storage, anyone got these?" or "How do I return the 'use item enchantment' action to my panel?" or the like. Searching forums or the IRC takes time and requires alt-tabbing, which is a pain for those who play in fullscreen. And when you roleplay, you have to have some coordination on what you play.

So I'd say, roleplay only in the "around" channel, and "whisper" if it's actual whispering, and keep guild and party channels for metagaming (Keeping them off most of the time).

Finding an in-game explanation for them is good too, but only if the explanation is logical and realistic enough.

RP in MMOG's looks like this when trying to base it on in-game activities:
"Let's go <activity>!"
"Yay, <activity>!"
"<motivation>!"

11

Re: RP Conventions

I think we should keep the ingame channels IC by default, double parenthesis (()) denoting OOC lines in between. For longer OOC conversations there is always IRC.

SWG: CL90 Smuggler, Crimson Phoenix Ace, CL90 Engineer, Europe-Chimaera
AoC: L70 Guardian

Re: RP Conventions

I say number 2.

I am roleplaying it like I am having a Floatbed Dream. or a seed version of a holodeck.

I should have the game downloaded in a week or so.  Damn Satelite internet links.

Re: RP Conventions

Wheri wrote:

I'd tell we do need an OOC/metagame channel. There are times you just have to ask "I need a fine Quality 40 counterweight with good sap storage, anyone got these?" or "How do I return the 'use item enchantment' action to my panel?" or the like.

Well, the former is something I think we're all aware of. For some of us, immersion is just so much more important than effectiveness. (As Darkhawk has pointed out, RPers are notoriously ineffective.) If you really do need to ask something like that, you could do it within OOC brackets. The latter is even more an occasion where brackets would be useful.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, though. I'm just giving you another angle. Obviously there's some difference in preference here. I can say that I'd be tempted to turn off a guild chat if it was OOC.

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Re: RP Conventions

As far as in-game excuses for number 2 go, I have the following suggestion which I came up with after considering the Mystical background of the setting:-

Atys is a living world. It has streams of life energy that flow through it, connecting the various living creatures at some level. Exploitation of this fact is common amongst Homins of a mystical bent- Magicians learn to channel the primal life energy of Atys, the "Sap" of the World-Tree through their bodies to power their spells. Harvesters can tune into the flows of the great branches of the canopy to locate resources and call thyem to the surface.

Is is too much of a stretch to accept that a form of empathy can connect the Homins of Atys?

Many Homins find that those close to them- their friends and family- will share some level of empathic bond. Thye will recieve flashes of image and feeling at times, and can learn to communicate their purpose and actions to these people. The communication has no words, it is trancendent of them. A Homin simply knows that this is happening. From an early age, people learn to shut off their bond, to avoid hearing or receiving when they do not wish to, but any who wish can send brief snatches of consciousness to those they call their own.
((Messages can be PMed to those on your friends list. The message is obviously in text form to us, but not to the characters. You might say "I'm killing some Javings in the ruins" and the character who gets the message gets a brief image of you doing this. When you say "I've respawned in the Karavan enclave" the characters who get the message feel your life-essence slowly rekindled in the direction of the enclave. So in this version, the words are OOC but the messages sent are not.))

Homins can also voluntarily lower their mental defences to listen in to the flow of thoughts and feelings around them. Normally this simply results in a flood of empathic noise that slowly erodes the Homin's mind. However, a determined Homin can sometimes glean information concerning the surrounding area's inhabitants, though the annoyance factor means few will do so on a regular basis.
((You listen in the the Realm/Universe chat channels.))

These two factors have been known long enough that many Homins have discovered ways to take advantage of them. Rituals have been devised that will allow Homins to mimic the bonds between close friends, and form their own empathic bond-groups. These rituals are conducted as a blessing for those who intend to work together, so that they will act as one. A more permanent version is enacted when a new organisation of comunity is formed, to bind the members together.
((The forming of Teams and Guilds, and the unique channels thereof.))

What do people think? I feel that it gives an excuse to use the chat channels fully whilst staying in character, and that it fits in with the Ryzom mythos. Add your comments and criticisms of course, they will be welcome.

Re: RP Conventions

Indeed I was thinking something along those lines as well... However I could imagaine that not every char is as attuned to their "Sap" as others.

Re: RP Conventions

That's certainly true- my own character is probably one of them. But this could be argued to be an innate ability rather than a leaned skill- that all other Sap-using abilities are extensions of this basic awareness.

After all, when is comes right down to it we're looking for a plausible excuse, not a solid reason.

Re: RP Conventions

I'm using the around option for all IC speech, any of the others are for random OOC things that just need to said because I can't use IRC for it (I have to run SoR full screen or my motherboard screams at me).

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Re: RP Conventions

Your explanation definitely works Tantavalist. The techie variety would be much easier to explain, as I hinted above. The bit about "world" and "area" is a bit of a stretch, (though wonderfully ironic) but it doesn't bother me because I'm not going to use them anyway. Still, I'm a little concerned with using OOC and saying it's IC because of the form of communication. If the communication is magical and telepathic/empathic, I'd much rather roleplay that. I can live with it, though.

Hm... hm... I really like the idea of limiting these "magic" messages in length, at least for those of us who are not so attuned to the sap. Not only does it make a lot of sense, it's atmospheric and it limits metagaming.


I'm not sure why, but the main problem for me is having OOC show up in the same place that I expect IC. It breaks my "flow" in the character immersion (and those of you who have met Tinai probably realise that flow is rather important to me) and jettisons my mind back into the being-myself-level. Somehow, having a separate window (like /tell or even better, IRC in another application entirely) allows me to ignore the OOC as long as I need to. I can get mightily annoyed if I'm in the middle of a roleplayed encounter and suddenly, in the same field as the roleplay text is displayed, I get "WOO I killed [boss x]" or something like that. When my character is alone, it's less of a bother, but still not wanted. Also, OOC within brackets work if it's brief and to the point, probably because the indication is clear. The strange thing here is that when I do get back to "myself" and start chatting OOC, I enjoy it, but it doesn't work while I'm IC, and so I want the separation to be distinct. I've heard others say the same, and it's often people who get rather deep into roleplaying.

Reflecting on this, I suppose I should get behind the idea of a completely separate OOC channel that I can toss into a tab of its own and ignore until I'm not as immersed, like I do with IRC. The question, however, is which one. As far as I've seen, the SoR chat system doesn't support creating new channels (a flaw, most definitely) and it's not given that we're all going to be part of the same guild. Then again, I suppose not everyone needs to be part of every OOC channel, so guild would work.

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Re: RP Conventions

Ahnion wrote:

Hm... hm... I really like the idea of limiting these "magic" messages in length, at least for those of us who are not so attuned to the sap. Not only does it make a lot of sense, it's atmospheric and it limits metagaming.

How about the sending of an emote suggesting an image? Something along the lines:

*An image of Shula holding a small pile of wood appears in your mind*

Now, you don't know if she needs it, has spare, or just in fact likes wood (I am so regretting my choice of example!). But you could then go ask her, or speak to someone else. And it doesn't even have to be that specific...I would suggest magicians would send clear messages, others foggy ones.

*An fuzzy image of a woman, maybe a fyros, holding a small pile of wood appears in your mind*

Just my tuppence worth wink

Esme

Re: RP Conventions

If we go for the IC chat on guild/team channels route, I strongly prefer the magical solution to the technological mobile phone like things. As far as I know, none of us possesses any other kinds of electronical or equivalent items, so it'd be really weird if everyone had their own mobile phone with them. The magical solution I could live with, and it would solve some problems, all right (most relevantly: finding out who's online and where the RP is - other kinds of organizing can be done by simply gathering in one place).

Re: RP Conventions

I gave this empathy idea a try, and I see it's pretty interesting to try to communicate with images instead of words. Also, it may lead to some interesting puzzles or even conflicts. Every Homin is attuned to Atys in his own unique way. Someone can only project vague images into other's mind, someone can only project feelings (You're suddenly overwhelmed by a sense of danger), someone - smells or taste, and so on. Someone's images get sharper as he gets more tied to the person he's communicating with, someone's images are equally vague to anyone - it can be a long list of possibilities.

And think of all the misunderstanding that can rise from. Ever played a game when someone guesses a word, another player has to explain it without words, and a team of 2-10 players try to guess what's being shown? It can get pretty interesting on a scale of an MMO!

RP in MMOG's looks like this when trying to base it on in-game activities:
"Let's go <activity>!"
"Yay, <activity>!"
"<motivation>!"

Re: RP Conventions

Well, it seems like we have people in favor of each of the 3 options I came up with, with a slight overweight of people preferring '2' or '3'.

The ones preferring '1' have a good argument in wanting to be able to ask meta-game questions without switching screen to IRC. This could be handled beautifully if we had an /OOC channel separately, that questions could be asked in. We thought we did not. But actually, we DO have such channels, and ingame they (officially) serve just that purpose. I am talking about the /region and /universe channels, which have this function and which can be turned off/ignored. Would it be acceptable if those who preferred '1' used these for metagaming questions and such?

If we remove metagaming questions, what might be left OOC (besides the occasional important OOC thing that could be inside (()), is social smalltalk perhaps. This does not seem to be an issue for us, and all seem to agree not to have that in our channels as such? If this is so, we have the outlines of a possible system in place.

Now, if you need to ask something OOC to one player, you can easily use /tell with (()). The same goes for /team or /guild if it is important and cannot be asked in any IC way, or to one person only via /tell.

As for the IC on the team and guild channel. This is the point of contention between '2' and '3'. However, I did test a possible solution with Wheri, and that strikes me as a workable solution to bring the two differences of opinion together. Feel free to correct me if you think otherwise, of course.

What we need the talk on /team and /guild to achieve is the following (provided the metagaming questions go elsewhere):

- To find out where the RP is, and go there.
- To be able to send somewhat descriptive messages to each other for coordinating
- To be able to call upon someone and arrange a meeting
- General talk to improve RP and the feeling of 'togetherness'

Tantavalist, being the thoughtful ex-TM'er that he is, has come up with a workable system indeed. As I said, Wheri and I tested this. This system fits in with the world (attunement through Atys, though this is more Kami than Karavan), and is vague enough to allow for misunderstandings and interesting RP to develop. On the other hand, it is also vague enough to limit at least the last point we might want to go for on the list.

Still, I think it is the best suggestion so far. And I'll suggest we put such a system to the test in /team, /guild and /tell (when it is not whispering. /tell can double both as whispering and magic communication). Here're my thoughts:

0 in Magic ability - possibility to receive communication, but not to send.

1-50 in Magic ability - limited ability to send. No thoughts, clear images, sound or smell, but emotional states and vague descriptions of where they originate: 'a rushing panic fills you, and there is a sharp pain in your side, as you get the impression of a huge, hot place far away'

51-100 in Magic ability - No thoughts, better images, some smell. 'a rushing panic fills you, and there is a sharp pain in your side, as you get the impression of looking at a hazy jungle, and a huge, flying bug in front of you. The air smells of rain.'

100-150 in Magic ability - No thoughts, but otherwise seeing, smelling, hearing and feeling (emotional and to some degree physical) what the sender experiences: 'You are in a jungle, fighting Kitin and slowly panicking. Your left side hurts from the huge wound there, and your swordarm feels heavy. You desperately wish someone would come and help you. Strangely you seem focused on the smell of the rain which is pouring down, rather than at the Kitin in front of you. Your vision starts to blur' (ok, by the time the sender finishes that description, he'd be quite dead wink)

151-200 in Magic ability - Possible to broadcast thoughts. 'Arrghh! I'm in the Kitin jungle, past the tunnel from the lake, and I'm getting beat up. Please help me!'

Well, a battle might have been a bad example to use, but I guess you can see where I am going with this. What do you think? It would of course take accept and some discipline for us to pull off this system. It might not even be the best system, but it is a system, and it has its benefits I believe. Of course, we can test it for now, on the basic stages, or you can come up with modifications to my quick fleshing out of this.

Last edited by Darkhawk (2006-10-07 14:06:33)

Re: RP Conventions

Don't like the idea of hard skill dependancy. Looks like we have to grind talking! :) Maybe someone can play it from this, but I don't think it's a good idea.

RP in MMOG's looks like this when trying to base it on in-game activities:
"Let's go <activity>!"
"Yay, <activity>!"
"<motivation>!"

Re: RP Conventions

Hmh. I really like Darkie's suggestion, but we can't just bring it into play unless people agree to using it.

Are you folks who want an OOC channel content to /universe and /region besides the occasional bracketed OOC? As Darkhawk said, we do need to invoke this practice as soon as possible to get the habit in. The later we set it, the more limiting it will feel.

In answer to Wheri: Hmm... well, the issue here is limitation to a degree. If everyone just had telepathic abilities, there would be little use in talking at all. I think maybe the curve is a bit steep as Darkie presents it, but there is a need to balance the capacity out. Perhaps notching it down to 1-25, 25-50, 50-75 and 75-100 would be more manageable?

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Re: RP Conventions

I like to correct something. /region and /universe channels are NOT OOC channels. Every channel what exist here are what ever players make them to be.
In Tutorial area has a lot of OOC talking, because new players have so many technical questions. In main land people use to IC in /region too, but they don't say that OOC isn't alllowed or even comment when people OOC. I don't understand what's big fuss about this at all. In Seed people did OOC all the time (( like this )).

It's so simple, IC as much as possible. OOC only when it's needed and make it as private as possible, when needed. When we are in guild, we usually have rule, like say Hi to guild chat, when You come in the game. So others knows You are there. This allows even those who are in RP even to contact to him/her personaly and explain what's going.

I have my self already disable the /region and /universe channels. I did not disable them because OOC, but because don't see any use for them.