Topic: Neshor's interview analysis

I was requested to publish the analysis on Arash's interview that Neshor made on the KDS forums. So here goes:

Neshor wrote:
I'll try to outline the concerns the interview brought up in me. I apologize if I seem like I'm looking for things to critisize. I feel that The Mission being as powerful as they are, all aspects of their ring must be openly spoken of.

Neshor: First, please tell me something about yourself. How old are you? How did you come to create The Mission?

Arash: I am two and a half months old by now. I was originally looking to join the Starcrafters, since they shared my goals and views. They were nowhere to be found however, so myself and a few others decided to create a ring that was built upon our original mission here. And so we did. That was nearly two months ago now.

N: What was the founding date of The Mission?

A: In Pre-Da Vinci terms, it was the 7th of May that The Mission was formed.

So, he was a week old, at most, when he decided what the fate of the community would be. And even though his plans have become more detailed during the time here, I've seen no indication of them giving the goals them a second thought. True, he probably thought a lot about it during his speedtraining, but still he could in no way have had sufficient information to base his decision on at the time he created the ring.

This seems to apply to many other rings too, I fear. But luckily, not all of them have equally far reaching plans right after their leaders have been awakened.

N: Please describe your ring in you own words. The values it is based on. Its goals and dreams and such.

A: The Mission is based on a dream of terraforming and exploration, of bringing the first humans successful to the stars and colonize Da Vinci. We believe in the original mission, that was to launch a seedship, establish a base here, and let TAU terraform with help from us, so that we in time will be able to create a civilization here. Then, we wish to in turn send out our own seedship and carry on the spread of humanity into the stars. We believe we have a great duty to the humans back on Earth who made this possible, and we believe in seeing it through. One day, I dream of meeting our brothers on Earth and proudly be able to say that we did it, we completed the mission and terraformed a planet. Of course, there are a lot of steps and smaller goals to realize before we get there, but these are our overall goals. We all dream of seeing Da Vinci become green.

Fair enough, I fully agree terraforming is a beautiful dream, well worth working toward. But I can also imagine good life without it. Had TAU not fed us with images of green fields with blossoming flowers, we wouldn't know to miss it, and could live our lives in content, instead of constantly dreaming.

Of course, the current situation needs fixing. But I'm fairly certain other means to make our lives better can are also possible. One can lead a perfectly good life in an underground colony, for instance.

I'm not sure I agree with the ultimate goal of looking good in the eyes of the Eartherns either.

N: Do you have any more detailed plans on how to finish the terraforming? A time estimate perhaps?

A: We have published a roadmap, detailing our plans and the steps we think need to be taken. However, there are many steps, and we are just at the beginning of all. Without access to laboratories, an outside research base, geological surveys, launching of satellites, not to speak of repairing TAU, there can be no real effective terraforming we believe. Therefore, giving you a time estimate would be impossible at this stage. This is no small task, it is the most momentous, most massive task humanity has ever tried to achieve.

N: Indeed, it is a humongous, difficult task. How good would you think the chances of its success are? No percentages asked, of course, just a general feeling.

A: My general feeling is that this is indeed achievable. I see no impossible roadblocks ahead in this. We can succeed at this if we put our hearts and mind to it. After all, everything here is geared towards that, and here we are, ready to work towards it. No, it is achievable and I hopw I will be alive to see it happen.

I'd really like to hear what he bases the opinion of "achievability" on. I mean, faith and perseverance can move mountains, but we're talking about a planet here. He admits he's at the beginning of it all, and at the next quote speaks of needing to do extensive research on terraforming. Yet he seems to know exactly what that research will reveal, or more precisely, won't. Of course he can't see any impossible roadblocks on the way - he hasn't even started looking for them, and I fear he never will.

To create the world Arash is aiming for, an incredible number of attributes must be set right, from climate and air composition to microfauna and vegetation. And most of these factors affect each other in a myriad of ways. It's not like building a house one brick at a time, it's more like building a house of cards in a storm. After all, it took Earth several billion years, through trial and error, to become what it's now.

N: However, I've heard arguments that the problems thus far would indicate that the original terraforming plan was flawed. And this is the first time ever this is tried. Does The Mission hava a contingency plan, in case, despite our best efforts, the task should prove impossible?

A: Oh, we also believe the original terraforming plan was flawed. One thing are unforeseen occurrences that have not helped, but of course it would be nearly impossible for humans lightyears away who have never tried this before, to come up with a perfect plan. Se we need adjustments, minor and major ones we think. It will take a lot of work and research to achieve this. If you are asking me for a hypothetical situaltion, where we once disciver that it is totally impossible to terraform Da Vinci, then I'd have to say that we will see when, or rather if we get there, what our options could be. As it is now, however, there is no rational nor scientific fact that speaks against the possibility of terraforming - if we make sure we do it right.

This is good news, I believe, about the original plans. I had feared The Mission would try to put TAUs original programming back on track without carefully investigating all of its aspects. This is one of the things I'm talking about adjusting my views in the end.

However, the fact that they're going to try terraforming until it's proven "totally impossible" (I admit, my wording as well), worries me again. Since few things can be proven impossible, no matter how slim the odds.

N: You've stated that you believe our best bet is to use TAU to achieve the terraforming. How did you come to the conclusion that TAU would still be cabable of performing its function?

A: Well, look behind me, there is a depiction of TAU. Originally four kilometers in height, now only three and severely malfunctioning. Yet thos three kilometers are full of terraforming machinery, data and plans. We need to repair and restore TAU, and gain full access to all its data and functions. From there, when we have more data about Da Vinci, we can adjust and start the real terraforming. It seems to me the sensible route. To build on that which is already there. After all, we hardly have the resources for other projects on the scale of TAU, nor is there a reason not to use TAU. Afterall, that is what it is created for, and by all accounts, it can be made to work too. We believe it will be the best and quickest way to achieve the terraforming.

No problem here. It would be my guess as well that the best resources for terraforming are those that were meant to be used that way. Nova Gaia's ideas of using plants are worth investigating as well, of course, and I don't see much conflict between the two views.

N: Tell me then, how do you picture Da Vinci when you look into the future? The planet, as well as us on it.

A: Not surprisingly, I picture it as a place resembling Earth. Rolling fields, lush forests, snow covered mountains, deep oceans, and teeming with life. As for us, I see us building a clean, democratic society with nature and technology co-exixting and without violent conflicts. TAU has taught us the futility of that, and I really hope we can keep it that way. Those are my dreams for the future, as well as the goal I work forward to, for Da Vinci.

N: How about children? What is your take on that? Will the utopy have those?

A: First, I must correct you, this is not utopia, this is something we have the tools and the will to make happen. And then... yes, of course we think our new world will have children. We should not deny our humanity. There will be a place for children, family and loved ones of course. This is part of what it means being human. We believe in us taking the full step once we finish terraforming. Eating, drinking, procreation, raising children... It is all part of it.

Beautiful dreams, true. But focusing on dreams instead of reality can be dangerous.

N: This, I believe, is related to the fact that your ring is opposed to genetical engineering of humans. Can you tell more about that? How absolute are you about this?

A: Well, it is not necessarily related to that, but since you bring up that topic: Yes, we are opposed to tampering with what makes us human. As it is a hard, philosophical debate to know just what makes us human, we wish to draw the line at any modification of our genes. We wish to remain human and not turn into utopian superbeings who do not age, do not eat and do not raise children, so to speak. Granted these are two extremes, but once you enter that path, there is no telling where you stop. If we once meet our brothers from Earth again, after hundreds or thousands of years, we wish to resemble them, wish to still be human. We do not oppose natural evolution of course, but we do oppose forced evolution.

So... because it would be a hard philosophical debate to know what makes us human, he'd rather just decide on it and make it a fact. "Humanity is based on our genes, end of story." True, his way we would certainly be on the safe side when protecting our humanity (assuming it has any intrinsic value), but if that's what we're after, we'd have to be vary of any kind of advancement. After all, humanity has come a long way from the head-bashing cavemen they once were - much with the help of social development and technology. Maybe we lost our humanity a long time ago.

They also seem to apply a completely different logic to genetic technology as opposed to other fields of science. Following his logic, he should also oppose the light bulb, because electricity may lead to electronics, which may lead to computers, which in turn may lead to self aware artificial intelligences that take over the world in three nanoseconds.

Mind you, I don't advocate jumping headlong into this technology either. But this kind of fanaticism gives me the creeps.

N: Would you use a retrovirus to save a person's life? Or is the natural circle of human life worth dying for? For yourselves? For others?

A: Neshor, earlier I told you we did not want superbeings who did not age. And I told you we were against genetic manipulation. Using a retrovirus is genetic manipulation. So I believe I already answered that question. Yes, we want the natural cycle of humans to continue. Birth, experience, giving birth, dying in time, after a hopefully meaningful life.

Absolutism at its purest. "Didn't you understand, we're against this? Thus, there can be no possible situation where we'd make an exception."

And he talks about the superbeings again. I, however, was talking about nothing more than an adjustment to our immune system, to make it produce some antibodies to fight disease. There's a lot more variance in the human genome naturally - in fact, each of us was born with hundreds of different mutations in our genome, although admittedly, most of them are irrelevant.

N: There are some rings in the Tower, however, who don't see things quite that way. Evolution and KDS included. Are you worried about that? Are you going to do something about that?

A: Why is it dangerous? Surely it is not more dangerous than it being resolved through democratic voting, Neshor? Apart from that, Evolution do not, I think, want to pursue genetic manipulation to the extent you seem to imply - there is no opposition between us and them as it stands. Apart from that, I wish to make it clear that with our knowledge of medicine, it is possible to create cures for possibly all diseases, also by engineering plants for this purpose. You present a fictional case where only genetic manipulation could save the life of a little child. That is an artificial example. Of course TM, as well as all the other rings who oppose genetic manipulation of humans, will be able to create cures for any possible diseases. There is no need for a retrovirus in that regard.

I wonder what "extent" I "implied". I'm fairly sure Evolution would accept using gene therapy to save people's lives.

I apologize for my harsh words, but this arrogance is making me angry. So he's sure we can cure all diseases with our medicine... Right, we've seen that. As far as I know, Rowen is *still* sick, despite our best efforts. Sure, we can probably find a cure at some point - but will he be alive to enjoy it? And had his illness been airborne and lethal we could all be dead by now. True, gene therapy is not a magic cure for all ailments, but it *is* one option among others, and sometimes, quite probably, the only one at the time.

N: It's true that we've been speculating for a while here. Let's get back to some more contemporary topics. Tell me, what is The Mission doing right now? Projects et cetera.

A: Well, of most note for the Tower are two projects we help out in. That is, the fungus investigation and the Chimbot Hijacking Project. As for the fungus, we are working together with the BHSU on analysing it and identifying ways to clean up the infestation. We have already made good headway, and are working as hard as we can on several promising sub-projects there. It is my hope we will have the fungus cleaned up within a reasonable timeframe. As for the CHP, that project is known by most of the Tower, I think, as most of the Tower are either backing it, or actively helping it. As of right now, the production phase of the CHP is nearly finished, although the recent flaws with TAU have delayed this phase.

N: Can you give an example on how you contribute to the fungus project? One of the sub-projects? What is it that The Mission is good at doing?

A: We have been providing the BHSU with equipment and safety gear. Most important in this case is that we have supplied them with Environmental Test Kits. Together, our researchers have collected samples. Right now, we are developing a special microscope to study the gungus in depth, while they are experimenting with amino acids tailored to killing it. As to what we are good at doing: We are very effective organizing things and believe in the importance of all the members working together in unity to help out the whole. This approach has yielded good results, we think.

All right, this is, of course, good. The Mission is an efficient ring indeed, and there's a lot we could learn from them. And they've been mostly good for the Tower thus far. It's the future I'm mostly worried about.

N: How is your ring organized? Hierarchically? Democratically?

A: Apart from the leader and the two handlers who can speak on official TM policy and recruit people, we have several coordinators. Coordinators of repair, production, administration, and coordinators of the investigations and projects we work on. These coordinators are picked by consensus and step forward according to motivation and fields of interest. They then research their fields, are responsible for coordinating our efforts there, and for briefing the rest of the ring. These positions shift as the situation demands. In general, we have a structure where we listen to all concerns and try to reach consensus.

N: How has this been working? Have you been able to find consensus on all important matters? If not, how do you make decicions in those cases? Vote?

A: This has been working very well. We discuss things until consensus has been reached. There has not been any case yet where this did not work. Of course the leader and handlers would have the final say if we could not reach consensus, but so far, that has not happened.

This sounds good, if it indeed is as rosy as he describes. It could be, though, that Arash is practically leading with his personality, his strength of will, and the fact that his views would perhaps be taken as the "official" interpretation of the mission. However, I'm speculating here, and would certainly need more information before confronting them on this.

N: I have one more topic I'd like to discuss. Or, more precisely, to return to the discussion on terraforming: As far as I understand, many methods of terraforming include huge scale events such as throwing ice comets on the surface or other similarly drastic measures. With misfortune, such things could be a risk to the colony. My question is: What level of risk do you believe is acceptable? Do you believe that the advancement of humankind as a whole is worth risking the lives of this entire colony?

A: First off, we do not think we will introduce much additional risk from now on in terraforming. Each step we take from here will be carefully researched, monitored and implemented, if it stands to TM. Before we begin on these things, we need to do a huge work with gathering information. However, we do not think we need to do anything as dangerous as what has already happened. I simply cannot see a situation where we only had one option if we wanted to terraform, and that option would risk our lives. And if it happened, you must remember that we terraform for humankind to have somewhere to live and enjoy their existence on this planet. Risking their lives would run counter to that.

N: So is your answer that you are not willing to take any relevant risks?

A: My answer is, as I think I expressed clearly enough, that there will be no risks of the magnitude you outlined, in regards to successful terraforming.

Right... once again, Arash knows exactly what is involved in the terraforming, even though, according to his own words, they haven't even started the research. Once again, he can't see this situation because he hasn't been looking for it.

I refer back to my allegory of building a house of cards in a storm. I agree with Arash that by careful research and risk analysis we may be able to reduce the risks to an acceptable level. But even as the great advocate of research even I don't believe we can always think of everything. We are talking about increasing the temperature of a planet by tens of degrees Celcius. No risk of unforeseen climatical changes? We're going to release Earth bacteria into the atmosphere by the billions. No risk of them taking a few evolutionary leaps in the new environment and becoming unrecognizable to our immune system? These aren't facts, of course, but I, for one, can think of such situations.

N: Well, that was all I had planned. Is there something you'd like to add as a final comment?

A: Yes. I hope this interview will serve to motivate and inform seedlings. There are many rings who do good and effective work on bringing us forward into this future we must give our all to achieve. The issues we have discussed here are big issues, but I believe that if we loose sight of those, loose sight of the big goals and visions, then the tower would indeed be a bleak place without hope.

I truly agree with Arash on this. I wish it will motivate the seedlings, members of The Mission and the others, to consider and discuss these issues. I also hope the members of The Mission have enough humility to see the errors in their ways when needed.

Soon, when the article has been published, we will start to force these issues into the light of day. Not all at once, but in the course of a hopefully long and meaningful discussion.

Last edited by Kryigerof (2007-01-10 20:02:08)

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

An excellent article. With the notes added by Kryigerof, it serves to highlight the flaws of The Mission's enemies even more than those of The Mission itself. Specifically, "because The Mission is big and influential, it must be bad. Because it is bad, everything about it must be seen in the worst possible light." And whilst quick to point out anything The Mission does wrong, even in the cases where it hadn't, they failed to have any better ideas of viable alternatives. It seemed to me at times that all KDS and Evolution ever did was work to undermine TM day and night. Oluf in particular seemed to have no political agenda beyond opposing TM whenever he could. Perhaps these people had good reasons for doing so, but the end result was the same- precious time and resources wasted in squabbles for power.

Tantavalist joined TM simply because it was clear that the Tower was failing, that something needed doing, and TM seemed to be the only ones doing it. In a crisis situation, it's better to do something now than the perfect thing later. He didn't agree with everything TM, and especially Arash, said, but respected that he was the only one working towards the Tower's repair with something other than obstructive arguments. Those people who say TM was wrong shouldn't criticise Arash, but rather the opposition leaders for failing to provide a viable alternative to TM.

And yes, I personally (and by extension my character) don't have any problems with genetic technology. In fact, on beliefs, Tantavalist was more suited to Evolution than TM, and if EVO had looked like it was going anywhere, that's who he'd have joined.

Yes, this does mean that a character who was becoming an increasingly bigger player in TM and slowly taking over its repair section was a staunch believer in clinical immortality and transhumanism, and yes, there would have been a major clash with Arash down the line. But Tantavalist had enough sense to save it for the time when the argument was more than just an intellectual debate and knuckle down to fix the Tower until then. He'd look at the people arguing against TM apparently for the sake of it and feel like shaking them by the neck and screaming, "Do you not understand that right now we are all going to DIE if the Tower isn't fixed, but you just stand around making trouble for the sake of it?!?"

Arash had a lot of ideas that were nothing more than hazy dreams for some unspecified time in the future, with no real idea of how he would achieve them, only that he wanted to. But the Rings that opposed TM often, to me, seemed exactly the same- the leaders had a hazy idea of forming a Ring to oppose TM and replace it as the major influence, but had no idea how to do it, so just turned up to meetings, yelled loudly, and spread malicious gossip. TM was working to do something- its enemies just worked to undermine TM.

Of course, it will be interesting to read the flood of counter-arguments that are going to follow this.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Well, there's not much to counter, really, because you're right. From an OOC point of view the major point of KDS was to oppose The Mission, because the game - in my opinion and Arash's - needed it at the time. And being such a small ring, we didn't really have too much time to do anything productive - organizing the meetings, plotting against TM etc took a major portion of our time.

I'll try to explain the IC reasons behind the opposition later - or perhaps Oluf will do it. It wasn't totally OOC, of course.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

My suspicions are confirmed then.

They may have had the goal of opposing TM, but really, they were laughably bad at it because you just thought "I'll opposed TM" and did that. I think that a much more effective method of opposition would have been to simply join TM instead. I believe that Oluf himself once said that the difficult part about rallying support against TM was that very few Seeds opposed their core goals. When people said they didn't like how powerful TM was becoming, what they seemed to be saying was that they didn't like how powerful Arash was becoming.

A small Ring that just plotted against TM was never going to amount to much. Joining TM and working for The Mission but against Arash would have been far more likely to work, especially as most of the criticism in the interview notes above seems based on his beliefs rather than the in-game actions of TM.

And on a purely OOC note, any attempt to oppose TM directly was doomed to failure by simple virtue of the fact that, between them, Arash and Mehken seemed to spend more time in-game than all the other Ring leaders put together. Seriously, do their players even need to sleep?

Last edited by Tantavalist (2007-01-11 14:05:44)

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

their floatbeds were broken so they didnt have any place to sleep tongue

Speaking from an IC view - Oluf was not only opposed to arash and TM just for the heck of it. He had some very very different views on how things should be done so it was natural to clash with them.
KDS was indeed created to oppose TM, from the ooc stance. IC we also wanted to oppose them but Oluf's beliefs was also a part of the KDS agenda (ie, adjusting the humans to Da vinci instead of the other way around, not to mention his ambition of "being somebody in a tower full of nobody's")

I believe that neshor's main IC reason for going against TM was the fear of one big ring that would controle it all, this would lead to a few people deciding for everyone he thought (corret me if i am wrong kryigerof!)... Oluf went along with this way of thinking mostly to gain an ally in neshor smile

Oluf would have never joined TM, nor with neshor (becuase of the above mentioned reason) i guess. TM's ideas of where we should go conflicted greatly with his own vision...besides why join TM when you can send a spy in there? tongue oh no...wait....who was anabelle actually a spy for again? i am confused....anyway!

TM was working to do something- its enemies just worked to undermine TM.

hehe smile
Yes and no. KDS(and Oluf) did have some real actual goals (research, search for knowledge) but at the same time we did oppose TM.
Before KDS Oluf wasnt as such against TM....mostly he just didnt like arash much but after joinning up with Neshor his views changed quite a bit on mehken for example.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Another suspicion confirmed... That Oluf's biggest problem with Arash and TM was that they had influence and he didn't. And I never said that the other Rings didn't have goals, just that TM was the only one doing anything concrete to work towards said goals.

Tantavalist had very little to do with the political side of things, just hearing from other Ring members and going to the bigger meetings, so my view of things is probably a little skewed. But the conflict between TM and KDS always seemed to be more about Egos than Idealology to me.

There's probably some subtle points I'm missing, since Tantavalist spent most of his time outside the floatbed wandering around doing repairs- I'm sure that there's a few TM members who wouldn't have known him as anything but a voice on the Ring channel, and as for other Rings, well... So all I saw of Oluf (and others) was this rather angry person who turned up to meetings to basically chant "TM bad! TM bad!" over and over and trying to win arguments simply by talking more than anyone else.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Tantavalist wrote:

Another suspicion confirmed... That Oluf's biggest problem with Arash and TM was that they had influence and he didn't. And I never said that the other Rings didn't have goals, just that TM was the only one doing anything concrete to work towards said goals.

Well, Neshor did organize the ringleader meetings and panel discussions, a very concrete way to work towards in-tower communication (one of KDS's main goals). (And no, most of the panels didn't have any kind of an anti-TM agenda.) Then there was the Canyon signpost project which we would have completed if we hadn't had large chunks of our work erased *twice* by a patch. (We didn't advertise the project publically, to keep The Mission from taking away our glory.)

And yes, Neshor's main concern was indeed that few people ended up doing the major decicions for everybody else. An extra bad thing was that the most likely candidates seemed to be single-minded fundamentalists.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

So was the overly-paranoid attitude towards TM IC or OOC? That's the one thing that comes up over and over again in every anti-TM argument ever made. "TM is run by fundamentalist dictators who are plotting to rule the whole Tower, everything they do must be seen as some sort of attack on the rest of the colonists." Yes, there were valid criticisms to be made concerning TM and its leadership, but they were blown well out of proportion by the anti-TM hysteria that half the Tower seemed to be spouting by the end. Even in the last post above, Kryigerof states that people were paranoid about TM stealing credit for their work. I'm genuinely curious about whether this was just RPing, or if players were truly convinced that TM was as bad as some would have had people believe.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

The paranoid attitude against TM was IC. The OOC reason to oppose TM was simply because I and Arash thought that they weren't opposed enough to make things interesting.

Oh, and we weren't so worried about TM stealing credit but for TM doing the work due to their overwhelming efficiency.:)

Last edited by Kryigerof (2007-01-11 18:27:53)

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Tantavalist it was *all* IC.... i even told arash to let me know if the in-game anti TM and arash bashing became too much smile

And yeah...if TM was working on the sign project they would have it done within a day tongue

The interresting thing(imo) is that Oluf bashed and blamed TM for a lot of the things he was doing himself. Not listening to others, not really careing for other peoples dreams etc

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

I was a member of Evolution :mrgreen: At least with my first character. I think another OOC reason for the focus to change on countering TM was the sad fact, that no kind of genetic tampering or research where being introduced into the gameplay... honestly there was little else to do wink

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Heh. Well, it's an interesting read here. Of course I agree totally with Tantavalist in the IC way of things. Very unconstructive, vicious bashing and even attempts to manipulate and infiltrate TM all over. Way too much time spent throwing mud than being constructive. However, that was also rather perfect for TM, because it made the more neutral people see what was going on. Everytime Thosam, Oluf and Neshor appeared to speak to Arash, their sole purpose was to have an audience and try to make Arash and TM look bad in that audience's eyes (Neshor was much, much more subtle about it than the other two). That was the strategy adopted to bring down TM, or try to.

And really.. You could have done better than that wink That just rallied the neutrals to us, because it was clear for everyone to see what you were doing. If you (ok, obviously Oluf would never get in wink) had joined TM with the intent of destabilizing us, you could have wrested a few members from us. You'd have to be very good, and know exactly what was happening and what to do, to affect the core of TM in this way though. Still, would have worked better.

Or you could of course stop arguing against TM and just lead by example. That would have worked well, because you'd have gotten tons of NPC support to make you appear better than TM then, and in the long run, that could have changed some things.

However yes, it would have taken time and dedication to go against TM, and yeah, we played a lot, and were really efficient. Most sensible would have been to just forget going against TM, letting things happen, going with it, and then see what would have been. We'd have been the leaders of the time directly or indirectly, but leaders fall in time, mostly by their own doing. Or if not, still plenty of RP and intrigues to play out. Anyway, that wasn't to be.

I also thought it funny how everyone stopped the NPC's who angled for a more direct leadership to be established. Because you knew what that would mean wink And you tried to have only one vote per ring, implying that it wasn't fair otherwise. Hehe, and the thing with accusing Mehken of assaulting a TSR member, and suggesting putting blockers on us. Good fun all around smile Though it took a lot of our resources and time just countering all of this and keeping a (not-so-paranoid) eye on everything. 

However, when it comes down to it, there never was that much TM or Arash bashing in the sense of it being wide-spread. There were 4 players who were anti-TM and shouted at meetings, etc. And then there were all of Zorg's NPC's of course, heh. It was the NPC's who kept that going, not the players as such. Oluf, Thosam, Neshor and Moire only. The rest weren't like that at all. Still.. With the right knowledge at the right time, you could have pushed Arash over the edge of a nervous breakdown perhaps. It grew pretty stressful at times, and we had the IC feeling everyone was out to get us. Combined with personal happenings, a push at the right time might have destroyed or severely weakened at least Arash. Luckily none of you were around to do that at the right times, or you didn't see you had your chance.

And OOC yep, it's true Kryigerof and I discussed setting up an opponent for TM, after Kryigerof complained that we were the only ring RP'ing and spreading RP. That was pretty early on of course, when those pesky OOC'ers were still around. He thought it might stimulate RP and variety to have other rings like that. How he pulled it off was of course up to himself. He kept playing Theodore, his TM char from time to time, but focused mostly on Neshor. And yeah, Oluf said we could just say if the harassment became too much. But when it's IC (and also ineffective outwards anyway, though it did stress our chars a lot wink), there's no need for that. We were all mature RP'ers, with friendly OOC feelings towards each other. It never entered that really bad point where you OOC begin to dislike the other players.

There was however one ring where the TM and Arash bashing was 'real', sadly real. They called me 'Mussolini' on their internal forums ;D I thought that pretty funny. They also went around telling new and old players how evil and mean we were, especially I, because one of them had seen Arash buy.. almost all the materials at one sharepoint once!! Wooooh.. And so on from there. THey were totally OOC'ers, not roleplayers, and they thought we were all to behave nicely. They couldn't understand that it was about RP and resource scarcity, that you played a role. They held me personally responsible for my chars actions, and grew angry (and tearful too), when I didn't seem to understand that I should stop acting in line with my char. A classic example of two worlds meeting, where at least one couldn't understand the other. And it wasn't all that much fun, as they were the largest ring at the time, and got to be rather vicious. Luckily the RP'ers ignored them, and they and most other OOC'ers lost interest in the game after 3 weeks or so. Still. And that was, ironically, before anyone could point any kind of finger at TM accusing them of bad stuff (well, actually TM never got around to do any 'bad' stuff, there simply was no need for that, though we would have, under the right circumstances).

Anyway, OOC I understand why TM was picked as the target. Such RP can be fun and doesn't take much play time or preparation (though that would have helped.. *snickers* wink), and it was a big part of what Seed was about. Intigue, politicking, squabbling, wasting time and resources. We certainly felt we were wasting time dealing with this, yet IC we also felt we couldn't afford not to. OOC we really didn't need to worry, but our chars had trouble seeing this, overestimating our opponents constantly. It was first after one particular stressful situation that Arash began to argue that really, we might be over-estimating the need to constantly keep a watch on our opponents, constantly devising back-up plans and setting up triggers for any kind of eventuality. Still, OOC I absolutely loved this, the intrigue and maneuvering to PWN your opponents without actual combat. It felt like very pleasing strategy. To Arash it felt like a constant irritant, something keeping things from getting done, keeping them from actually making things better and it depressed him a lot actually.

When Tantavalist joined, Arash felt there was something he held back, but it wasn't serious enough to warrant him not joining, and although yes, that would have been a major surprise and clash down the line, I think it'd been taken without bitter feelings. Because Arash could really respect people he saw as sensible, working people. And he would have nothing against good arguments. But he absolutely had no patience for people coming to 'argue' with him to try and smear him and TM views to those who listened, having no interest in the argument itself. And that happened a lot with certain PC's and NPC's in the garden, when there were many listeners around. So as TM grew in power, and he didn't have a need to constantly defend his views to an audience, he preferred to talk one-on-one,  and just be dismissive when someone tried to pick a verbal fight with him. Of course they would then cease upon that and accuse him of not wanting to argue, of being arrogant, hehe. But at that time, it rang hollow in people's ears, so he could get away with it. I remember one particular time where Oluf wanted to hear about Moby's death in the garden (with audience of course), starting off with accusing Arash of withholding information from him, hinting that Arash and TM didn't want Oluf to know. That was just starting out of course, what would have come afterwards would have been Oluf dropping hints that TM probably had a hand in the murder I'm sure. Hehe, it was quite predictable, in a fun, good way wink Anyway, Arash basically told Oluf to sod off. Then Oluf tried blackmailing Arash with something in a private message, can't even remember with what, and Arash replied in public by laughing and saying so all could hear that blackmailing wouldn't work. I guess Oluf didn't know how to go from there, denying it or trying to say it wasn't blackmail. He chose the latter, but at that time the audience was onto his tricks. So it felt incredibly nice for Arash just to be able to totally ignore Oluf. As the TM members said often, Oluf appearing on a scene was actually a boon to them wink I think that time was also when Thosam was making 'I am the King of the World' rude gestures behind Arash' back.. Haha, that didn't help with credibility either smile Was fun. Ah, just reminiscing here. And there's so much to reminisce about..

Oh, and that mapping project. As it happens, when KDS couldn't finish it, we did it in one day yes, at least our part of helping Dustman. It's hard to argue against visible efficiency, especially in such a tower. Or it should be.

And hey Frakel, Evolution? Wanna slip the name of your char here? Mh? I'm curious.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Sure. I played ChaiRho - the medic. Had some trouble settling into that character - it was my first mmorpg experience after all. Also he was very serious, and allready there where so many serious people around the tower and so much great scale planning... In the end I thought that some contrast to all of this would be in order and introduced the friendly but loony old repair guy Mozungo :mrgreen: Playing him was great fun! I remember arriving fresh from floatbed to pop right into Mehken and Arash (who else :roll:). There was something about Mehken trying to collect a blood sample or something... wink

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Yeah, that wasn't coincidence by the way.. You bumping into us wink Our eyes and ears had informed us there was a new old Seed around, so we came to investigate and ascertain who and what you were, and how you could or did fit into the big scale planning. I remember us thinking you might have spent a little too much time down in the pit.. wink

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Ah yes- the wonderful TM eyes-and-ears network. Amazing how impossible it was to keep thing from us when all it amounted to was people calling out on the Ring channel whenever they say or heard somthing potentially interesting. Given the sheer number of TM Seeds compared to the other Rings, and it becomes understandable how Arash or Mehken would magically appear at any significant event.

In this case it was me making a sweep through the floatbed chambers- as one of the top repair workers in the Tower and a trained medic, I liked to check for new Seeds every so often, and offer assistance and medical treatment to those who hadn't stumbled onto the garden (yet another TM recruiting strategy, which usually resulted in a new member or a friend in another Ring). I overheard another Seed talking to Mozungo- I forget who- and, picking up that he claimed to be an Old Seed, mentioned it on the Ring channel.

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

That other Seed was Nuala I believe. Because she told me at the same time. Hehe, yeah, it was a nice network all around smile

Re: Neshor's interview analysis

Tantavalist wrote:

I overheard another Seed talking to Mozungo- I forget who- and, picking up that he claimed to be an Old Seed...

Claimed? *grumpf* He WAS an old seed! And Im pretty sure I could have convinced the GMs to support the claim if necessary.

After all they accepted that ChaiRho was an old seed - an old medicine student of Kayte in fact :mrgreen:

Off course it all started with me blatantly telling everybody who cared that ChaiRho was an old student of Kayte... then I suddenly received this tell:

Ah how I miss such interaction with the GMs...

And back on topic then:
Reading Neshors Interview Analysis was really great. Being a late arrival to SEED and a generally lousy intrigue player meant that most of the plotting went WAY over my head... Its nice to finally see just how much bad blood where running :mrgreen:

Last edited by Frakel (2007-01-12 17:03:02)