101

(6 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Jake - The Watch
15.1.105

Thrayn wrote:

3. Death. Come on Jake, it IS an option - in the case of unredeemable offenders, murderers and the like, people who do not want to return to tower society, and whose crimes make it impossible to ignore them, I say the death penalty is a very real and sensible option. We are not picking flowers here and sitting in circles hugging each other. We are desperately trying to survive in conditions that are frankly, crazy. We do not have the luxury to not do what is needed. What would you do with someone as wicked as Shamha otherwise? Someone who has killed and schemed to kill so very many completely innocent seeds. She is a security risk for as long as she is alive.

Correction: It's not an option for a civilized society...

102

(6 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

The Prophet - Society of Free Colonists
15.1.105

Thrayn, I second your suggestions.

103

(6 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Ami - Da Vinci Prospectors
15.1.105

Thrayn wrote:

2. Dangerous work - Some work in the tower is more dangerous than others. Exploration for one. The Prospectors have lost many good men and women charting the tower for us, looking for a way to the Lower Cluster, and so on. The proposed project to explore the outside is just a new continuation of this. Brave men and women will lose live and limbs for this, before it is over. Why not also use those who have been condemned? If they do their part, they will redeem themselves and can return to their old life. If they sustain injuries, then better them than Seeds who have done no wrong.

No, no, no! The last thing any prospector would want to do is to babysit some erratic convict with no discipline or honor. The teams are made out of the best material, fit to survive, not the kind of scum that was convicted for endangering the lives of others in the first place. I speak for every prospector on this, and I doubt the Firefighters and other hazard workers are too excited by the prospect either.

104

(6 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Thrayn - Jorian Reformist Party
13.1.105

You raise a valid concern Jake, and do come with suggestions, but I don't think you exhaust the possibilities. I also think you shy away from hard truths.

We punish to make the offender regret what he/she did, so that it is not repeated. We also punish to deter others from committing the same crime. And lastly we punish to make the rest of us feel secure and content in that actions do have consequences. In our tower, all of this is important, critical even, and we should not shirk away from this in order to be 'humane'. Too much misplaced 'humanity' will end us.

Now then, I see the following punishment options for offenders who are judged guilty of endangering our society and/or life.

1. Scientific Experiments - it is no secret that much research of ours would go faster, to the possible benefit of all, if we had more live human subjects who took part in them. It would both deter offenders and help our society, if a punishment method was forced participation in a (naturally as safe as it can be made) scientific program involving some risk.

2. Dangerous work - Some work in the tower is more dangerous than others. Exploration for one. The Prospectors have lost many good men and women charting the tower for us, looking for a way to the Lower Cluster, and so on. The proposed project to explore the outside is just a new continuation of this. Brave men and women will lose live and limbs for this, before it is over. Why not also use those who have been condemned? If they do their part, they will redeem themselves and can return to their old life. If they sustain injuries, then better them than Seeds who have done no wrong.

3. Death. Come on Jake, it IS an option - in the case of unredeemable offenders, murderers and the like, people who do not want to return to tower society, and whose crimes make it impossible to ignore them, I say the death penalty is a very real and sensible option. We are not picking flowers here and sitting in circles hugging each other. We are desperately trying to survive in conditions that are frankly, crazy. We do not have the luxury to not do what is needed. What would you do with someone as wicked as Shamha otherwise? Someone who has killed and schemed to kill so very many completely innocent seeds. She is a security risk for as long as she is alive.

4. Neural Reconfiguration. We are not quite there yet, in terms of technology, but we can do things like this in a cruder way already. For the non-scientific - Neural Reconfiguration techniques, while diverse, focus on changing the recipients personality, conduct, way of thinking. If we can change the offender, so that we can be sure he or she will never do the same again, then that is the best and most efficient way of dealing with a crime. This punishment should aim at making sure the offender does never commit the same offense again, while keeping the utility of the offender as intact as possible. We can make people into near mindless drones, but this will not achieve the desired results. But perhaps, with research, we can reconfigure neural pathways in the brain, so that offenders will not want to commit their crime again, and will have a way of thinking and behaving, that is in harmony with Tower survival. Also, to some, death would be preferable to losing part of their free will (the part of their free will that makes them do crimes against innocents), so it would also serve as a major deterrent to others.

Looking at my suggestions, the first two punish the offender and deter others I think. They also provide some benefit to the tower as a whole, which was the one 'suffering' under whatever crime was committed. However, they do not reform the offender, though they might scare some away from it.

The 3rd option completely solves this problem. Once you are dead, you will not repeat your crime. Also, it is thea good deterrent to others. Unfortunately, it also removes someone whose skills we might have needed.

The 4th option thus seems the best in a perfect Tower, but it does not seem feasible as of yet. If working, it would solve all problems. We would get efficient workers who would not do any more crimes.

That is all I had to say, I leave it up to you to discuss it. I am not saying these options will feel 'humane' - they are what can be done for punishment in an effective way, that will benefit the Tower. They are not suggested to make anyone feel good inside.

Sorry to be so late with this. Mizuki, Ishi, Tagato, and Andrea: at 13:00 CEST. 14:30, the sentence will be announced so if you want to hear it, be there. At 16:00, Mike, Relay, Tagato, and Stayn.

106

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

I added an entry about Tyler and the Scholars into the timeline. And posted on TAU Space.

107

(6 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Jake - The Watch
11.1.105

Again it's become topical to think about how to treat those who've been seen guilty of crime in our tower. The question is tricky, since we don't have many options at our disposal.

Here are the punishment methods I could think of:

1) Locked in a floatbed. This keeps the criminals from repeating their crimes but we've all seen how dangerous a floatbed malfunction can be. I don't think this should ever be an option.

2) Blockers. Keeps the criminals from doing certain things, like operating most equipment, but won't keep them from, say, joining the Lurkers. Not really useful here.

3) Constant surveillance. Allows the criminals to continue doing their work. However, takes lots of time from those doing the surveillance.

4) Pardon. Not a good idea if we don't want to encourage criminal behaviour.


None of these seem really good. So, I've thought about the little I know about punishment on the old Earth.

1) Death. Not an option.

2) Banishment. To the Lurkers? Outside? Nope.

3) Imprisonment. The floatbeds work as prison but... Anyway, maybe we could build a prison somewhere outside them. Or maybe some kind of a modified blocker that keeps the prisoners from leaving specific areas.

4) Fining. We could remove the possessions of the criminals - all admin bits and tools. This wouldn't keep them from working with the Lurkers, though...

5) Indentured service. We're all basically indentured servants, working in the worst conditions imaginable much of our lives. Being "sentenced" to this would mean nothing.


Any thoughts? We really need to figure this out.

There will be STSC tomorrow.

109

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

I updated some of the projects in the project list.

110

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Astran - Stargazers
13.1.105

I've been thinking about this, and it all seems kind of weird to me..

Where would the harm be in making the Lurkers LESS aggressive? Can that in any way have been bad? I think not, and I guess neither did the SoFC'ers.

As for attending a meeting and engaging in dialogue - that should never be illegal. There are some things that are just clearly worth fighting and striving for. The right to speak freely, with whomever you chose, should be one of those. That does not mean you accept what  some Lurkers do, or that you become tainted by participation - it simply means you have an open mind and are more likely to find workable solutions for the good of all. As it seems the SoFC could have done, had they not been stopped.

I don't think I am the only one seeing this. It seems twisted somehow, that all are hauling out the huge CCSDE's in this matter, instead of looking at both both the intended as well as the practical effect of Sinuhe, Andrea, Aviah and Jaana's plan.

Nobody seems to disagree that the SoFC'ers meant well. And no matter how I turn it, the effect of what they did, had they succeeded, would only have been beneficial. So why are we having this trial and this discussion I wonder? Why is everyone and their patch sibling jumping on this?

The Tower never was threatened by their actions, only good would have come of it. It is a sad day when individuals no longer do what is right just because it goes against a (shaky I might add) general consensus. Don't give me all this philosopher-muddying about how catastrophical that would be for a society. We've seen time and time again how determined individuals can do what's right when the majority is passive or worse. It's what has enabled humanity to both abolish slavery and reach the stars.

Think about that before dragging it all down to some cold, clinical level where everything can be dissected and be called ineficient or illegal if it goes against the ethereal Whole.
-------------------------------
The stars are still out there!

111

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

Still more.

112

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Jhim - Society of Free Colonists
13.1.105

Lorne wrote:

You complain about big rings having secrets? How hypocritical do you think you are allowed to be? The Horizon are open with us, while YOUR ring has tried to keep the Lurker meeting a secret to the rest of the tower. YOUR ring has shielded those of its members who wished to aid the Lurkers. YOUR ring members knowingly went against tower law, trying their best to keep their actions a secret.

Please don't generalize. I had nothing to do with this, I didn't go to Sinuhe's meeting when he asked for people he could trust, I didn't know what they were doing, and I certainly didn't help them. Frankly, I never wanted anything to do with the arrogant little endeavours of Sinuhe and Andrea, I just wanted to do my job and have a ring channel without commitments. Please don't look at me like I'm some terrorist Lurker, okay, I don't condone it and I had nothing to do with it!

113

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Balthazar - The One Faith
13.1.105

INTRODUCTION

What we have here is actually an important event in our Tower history. I have been reluctant to post here due to the usual nature of such discussions. However, there is a large audience reading this, and I think there are some topics that still need to be mentioned, so that said audience can make informed judgments. If we are very lucky, perhaps we can utilize the current situation to better life and stability for everyone living in the Tower. I sincerely hope so.

I will try to list only facts, historical and actual, and avoid commenting on the actors in this current drama except peripherally - they are not what is important as such, and we should stop focusing so much in the individuals, analyzing the broader patterns instead.

BACKGROUND

Historically, humans have been very quick to establish rules and a body of governance whenever groups larger than around 30-50 individuals were living and working together. 30-50 seems to be the upper limit that can be maintained without some firmer form of structure and hierachy, as we cannot psychologically identify personally with more than this number at once. This is reflected here in the Tower in that most rings have trouble exceeding this number, and if they do, they need to have a structured system of handlers and a leader in place, to divide the ring into smaller units.

There is also a larger number, somewhere between 100-200, beyond which the brain has even more trouble maintaining an individual perspective to the whole. This number is where humanity historically has moved from the small family units, through the chieftain clans and into the realm of a governed society.

Studying history, one will see that this happens naturally everywhere where this number of humans get together and do not start with killing off each other. As in early society, so also in our Tower. In the following, I believe it will be fruitful to compare our tower existence to mankinds early history. The most important comparisons that can be made are:

1. We have around the numbers of an early society (last count said 1200)

2. Our lives are directly threatened by death and failure in the same way as early mankind

These psychological (the numbers) and practical (our physical frailty) points are what makes it more fruitful and correct to look at mankinds first societies than at our pinnacle, the Technocracy, when understanding how life works in this tower. I am aware this is a debatable point for those who believe we are close to the Technocracy still, but please indulge me for the time being.

Why did mankind so naturally establish their first societies, moving from the smaller (30-50) family hierachies and the bigger (100-200) chieftain clans? They did so because of the inherent safety and stability attainable in such numbers. If a stable society could be established, less time was needed individually on matters such as survival, because of the specialization possible in larger groups. Some could gather food, some could become soldiers, defending from external (and internal) threats, some could build structures, and so on. The social contract made between such people undeniably gave them a longer, easier (such as it was) life. It made sense on every level to cooperate, though chieftains, being human, often decided to try and kill off the other group instead of merging. If you keep seeing similarities to our current state of affairs, then that is good.

As it is, the level of safety and stability a merger into a (working) larger society fostered has been what has moved humanity forward. All the way forward to this tower, though we now find us at the beginning steps of civilization and society all over again. I hope you are with me this far, and agree that we need a form of society in order to increase our chances at both survival, wealth and social happiness.

Now, if you agree this far, let us look at what dangers a fragile, beginning society faces, and how it protects itself.

1. External threats - These threats are what societies are best at protecting its citizens against, their reason for existing in the first place. Their success in doing this naturally depends on their size and efficiency, meaning how well the resources at hand are managed. Notice again how direct a comparison between the ancients and ourselves we can see here.

2. Internal threats - These are many and varied. And here we will find the crucible of this post.
   
- Incompetent leaders

These are very hurtful to a society. If the society does not face external threats, it can survive bad leaders. If it does, the incompetent leaders can weaken the whole enough for the society to collapse.

Democracy with multiple leaders and the option of removing them peacefully is brilliant at limiting the effects of incompetent leaders. However, it has been said it is only the 'least bad' solution, not neccessarily a good one. A good leader can take the society far ahead of where it would have come with democracy. A bad leader can destroy a society. On average, a stable democracy will take the society forwards in a slow but secure way, making up for the efficiency of a good dictator with assured, slow forward progress, and protection from a bad dictator.

- Bad government system

If the society has the wrong government system for the task, i.e. dictatorship when it is more beneficial to be feudal, then it will wither and not achieve the level of advancement it could have attained.

However, after the development of democracy, it is hard to argue that any other form of government could produce better results, as above. We can have leaders acting swiftly and efficiently in a democracy as well. I also believe, contrary to some, that this Tower IS a democracy. Not a direct one of course, nor are our ringleaders yet as accountable as in traditional representative democracies, but it is unfair to call what we have a council of dictators at least.

- Criminals

Criminals are defined as those who act against the established laws of the society. These laws need to be put down in writing or spread orally to be formal, so that citizens know what is legal and what is not. Criminals, as opposed to dissidents, do not threaten the existence of the society, and thus their punishment is traditionally more lenient (relatively), as society as a whole can survive their actions, even if individuals cannot. In primitive, early societies, criminals were usually physically punished in a way that ensured they could not repeat their crime. Cutting off hands for theft, loss of genitalia for rape, I am sure you get the idea.

As societies developed and became more intricate, so did crime, and it became harder to punish this precisely. Loss of freedom, wealth and status relative to the perceived damage to society were then the punitive norm for offenses, with death as the biggest punishment, that negated both freedom, wealth and status completely. Later again, as societies grew more stable and secure, focus began to center on sociologically educating the criminal so that the offense was never repeated again, while the victims were reimbursed by society as a whole. This level of civilization was not completely realized before the Technocracy, not would it have been efficient to all societies if implemented.

- Dissidents

These are always the biggest perceived threat to a society. Dissidents are those who oppose the structure upon which the society is built and through their actions directly threaten the existence of the society. As such their punishment has always been the harshest in any society. A society can have many laws, but not threatening society itself must neccessarily be the most important law to society, because it is a matter of life and death (real or perceived) to the society and its citizens.

Not only can dissidents not be tolerated, they rarely are tolerated by the majority, there are many emotions involved in this, when their actions are perceived to harm the whole and thus also the individual. For leaders of societies, it has historically been a convenient way to remove many different irritants or problems - if a criminal can be said to be a dissident, it is much more likely citizens will accept whatever punishment is decided upon. In most societies, dissidents were also those who spoke out against the ethics, ideologies or structure of a society, though more advanced societies managed to secure these under the 'freedom of speech', as opposed to the dissidents who endangered the society through violence, wars or physically aiding enemies. Verbal disagreement was seen as acceptable by some societies, whereas physical actions were not.

CONCLUSION

Now, after this lengthy exposition designed to sum up our current status, I will finally be able to move to what I had to say.

Currently, although we have a basic, working Tower democracy, and binding laws/agreements in place, we lack the means of a real society to enforce these laws. We have no prisons as such, nor do we have a trained police force nor weapons. Our mindset here is still that we are a group of scientists more than a society, and this has already been problematic. We are unwise to think we can survive without more structure. It is not possible in the situation we are in, we do not have the luxury to act as we please, we do not have the luxury to think we can reason with everyone, no matter what - it is impossible to reason with everyone, as long as we do not all share the exact same  goals and morals.

In any society there will be criminals and dissidents - our society is as endangered as any primitive early human society. We could die off any day due to a variety of causes. Our only hope of survival lies in efficient cooperation. Efficient cooperation requires a governed society, where citizens act according to laws that are in place to protect the whole. Also, as we are free-willing individuals, this society needs an enforcing body, there is no way around it, except if we want to believe in the goodness of all humankind.

We will fail, we will die without a stable society.

I think it is time we stopped being children and accepted these hard truths - before it is too late. The current situation serves well to highlight several points.

1. People go against tower decisions as they please, due to a variety of reasons.

2. We have a democratic society, but it is fragile, partly due to our hesitation to fully embrace it.

3. Both those inside and outside of our system take advantage of it.

Lurkers have benefitted from our pacifism and lack of weapons.

Lurker collaborators have been able to work with the Lurkers because they do not see this as a moral problem or a big enough risk to themselves.

And our appointed investigators have broken our moral rules, perhaps because there was no one to stop them, no one who controlled them or knew what they were doing.

In short, we are an inefficient semi-democratic, almost-society, and this keeps us at deaths door, very close to total failure if just a few factors go the wrong way. I believe it is time to stop thinking we have the luxury of doing as we please with this. We must reign in our manipulators as well as our anarchists, and put consequence behind our democratic decisions. And we must start opening up for more democracy in slow, measured steps.

Thus I suggest:

1. We establish a governing council - this would be made up of ring leaders, much like our ring leader meetings now, but instead of everyone working at cross-purposes as now, they start to work together as a whole. Over time, we go towards representative and direct democracy.

2. We establish an enforcing body with complete transparency built in and answerable to the council, tasked with securing the stability of our society. This is more important than anything: No matter what you may think, we are humans, and there both are, and will be, humans who cannot be reasoned with. These people must not be able to end our existence.

3. We do not shirk away from punishing criminals and dissidents as needed for the stability of the Tower (I would say freedom of speech does not harm us). We stop being lenient just because TAU taught us to work together as if we were only 30-50 people. The reality of the matter is that we are a large society, and what TAU teaches us will work for a small group will not work with thousands of colonists. Personally, I think the accused from SoFC should be punished as dissidents, and the three offenders from The Horizon as criminals. I also offer my insights into Earth's judicial systems to the ringleaders and will strive to be impartial in this.

To conclude, I must stress that NO early society has ever survived according to TAU without these measures - And we are too many to keep the illusion that we are just a large group of acquaintances who respect each other. We must cease believing we can run around helter-skelter, at cross purposes, knowing better than all others. We need a structure that collectively knows better than any individual, and we need the structure to be accepted by all, hence democracy, transparency and freedom of speech.

Let us seize this opportunity, while we are still able, to take the beginning steps towards a stable, just and civilized society - because that is what we must become if we are to survive.

-----------------------------------
Join us to discuss the word of God at Lockerhall Alpha, every Thursday at 9:00.

114

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

More.

115

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Reneb - Da Vinci Collaboration
13.1.105

I agree that there's little reason to condemn Sebastian of The Horizon for giving his defence statement during the trials. For a long time in the juristical systems of Earth, it has been standard practice for the representative of the defendant to give their best arguments in favor of their clients. The same would apply to the prosecuting party. The judge and jury would base their decision on these arguments, as well as the facts and proof presented.

As far as I know, last week's trial has been an exceptionally honest affair compared to similar cases in the history of Earth, as well as the tower. All prosecuted parties fully confessed to all charges read against them. All prosecuted parties had the chance to present their motives and justifications. As far as proceedings go, I for one have nothing to complain about.

I recommend those who suspect foul play on behalf of either party to focus on finding proof to support their claims. As for punishment, I sincerely hope the verdict will be fair and based on fact.

116

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Ben - The Horizon
12.1.105

What, so now he's not allowed to defend himself before judgement? What should he have done, just stand there and let everyone harash him without replying?

117

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Barbaros - The Tubelift Central Collective
12.1.105

Yeah, so there's a flamewar starting here. Real nice of you to walk all over
the new Seedling.

Anyway, was I the only one noticing the high and mighty Emperor Sebastian
resorting to unusually crude manipulation at that Garden farce?

As Relay briefly reflects, he seems to have used the torture thing to have
his ring seem honest and forthright, 'nobly' admitting to the deed, since it
would have leaked out anyway.  But when he and his two cronies had to say
they submitted to whatever punishment the tower could come up with, he
stooped really low. I wonder if he's losing it? He asked us to remember
those who were killed by Lurkers first.

Yeah, so in effect he wants to appear submissive to tower law, and at the
same time he wants to manipulate us to not really punish him or his
accomplices, by making us feel sympathy for the need of his actions. No news
there, but I thought the obvious way he mentioned those killed by the
Lurkers as a ploy to soften up the audience to be uncharacteristically
crude. And this is High Lord Sebastian himself, the grand manipulator! Has
age finally caught up with him?

I hope I was not the only one getting gag reflexes at this shameless and
opportunistic ploy, and I hope we surprise King-of-the-Drones Sebastian
together with his torturing henchmen and actually punish them so it can be
felt!

-------------------------------------------
The Tubelift Central - most repair jobs per manpower in the entire Middle Cluster!

118

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

And more.

119

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Cassia - Dreamers of Gaia
11.1.105

Hey all! I don't really want to get into this discussion - it's going to end in flames! I just wanted to say this:

Sinuhe wrote:

Not to mention the Dreamers of Gaia. Remind me, Lorne, what was the tower's decicion about introducing new species to The Garden again?

There was no standing tower decision about introducing new species to the tower at the time! The fact that people decided, after the fact, to eradicate all the bees - that had been completely harmless, just as we'd expected - is a totally different matter!

120

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

Yet more posts.

121

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Sinuhe - Society of Free Colonists
11.1.105

Thank you, Lorne, for an interesting and insightful analysis of the current situation. I feel the need to clarify some misunderstandings, however.

Lorne wrote:

Relay of The Society of Free Colonists - Your musings are not rational nor are they objective. You seem to be convinced you know about the rings of the tower, and know all there is to know about The Horizon - enough to judge them like this. It is the height of arrogance, and your post will just amount to one more in the long line of anti-TH posts made by people who should know better. Instead of any reflection into whether what your own ringmembers did might not have been much worse, you focus exclusively on The Horizon - a good tactic if you wish to muddy the floatbed, although not a very likable one.

I believe the accusasion for "muddying the floatbed" is an unfair slant against Relay. He has the right to state his opinion on any matter in the tower he chooses to. The choices by me and some of my ringmembers are a matter in themselves. Relay wasn't even awakened when those choices were made, so it's not only unfair but rather rude to use them to diminish his arguments.

Lorne wrote:

What do you know of The Horizon? Have you talked with them? Asked them about their motives? Ever met just one of their members enough to judge that person? Or the whole? Do you know how much good they do for the tower? How much bad? Have you analyzed pro's and con's rationally and fairly before arriving at your conclusion?

Relay wrote:

I call everyone to reconsider their relations to the Horizon.

Relay is presenting a concern, not a comclusion. He's requesting everyone to think through their relations to a ring he's worried about. I invite everyone to do the same concerning myself and the actions of my ringmembers. I believe there is a lot for everyone to learn here, assuming every attempt at dialogue by the newly initiated doesn't get shot down this violently.

Lorne wrote:

No, you have not. Instead you think you can just conclude whatever you like in the spur of the moment, without regard for how it will be used politically.

The Horizon is, I admit, very good at having regards on how something is used politically. Personally, I prefer a free exchange of thoughts and opinions over political conveniency.

Lorne wrote:

And that is not considering whether you are not having ulterior motives, as most who critizise the bigger rings have.

I would respond with a "Come on!" but that would be drooping too close to the level of some... arguments. I hear the stench down there is quite unbearable.

Lorne wrote:

One such motive could very well be to deflect attention from your own ring and their doings. Your ring members tried to aid Lurkers. Terrorists who have killed innocents. And now you wish our sympathy for the criminals who have been apprehended? Now you wish to tell us that those who captured your ring members on behalf of the tower are the real problem? Come on!

I believe it has been stated several times that the purpose of our action was to reduce the violence - the killing of innocents as you so dramatically put it. I do not ask for sympathy for myself - however unpleasant my time in the cell may have been. I fear, however, that with the hormonal imbalance among the Lurkers running amok, the death count may yet rise. The responsibility for that will lie solely on the shoulders of the 'investigation'.

Lorne wrote:

I am not saying The Horizon are perfect, not at all, but in this particular case, this is a classic example of painting white black and black white. Yes, the Lurker Investigation Project, which was not even started by The Horizon, used non-lethal weapons. These weapons were sanctioned by the other ringleaders.

Using weapons was an error back then, as well as it's a mistake now. There is only one easy way to respond to violence, and it's more violence. The 'investigation' has chosen the easy path - do you think the Kingdom of Orph, or "the Lurkers" will be now inclined to choose the hard one?

Lorne wrote:

You use the word deceptive, but where are they really deceiving us? They captured 4 of YOUR ringmembers who have admitted to aiding the Lurkers. According to their own words, they (still) think this was the right thing to do. This is directly against what the tower has decided. It is also incredibly dangerous to the stability of the tower, whether they did so based on misguided morals or sinister intent.

The tower didn't have all the relevant information at the time of the decicion. And speaking about "the tower" is a rather strong generalization in any case. Several major groups, including The Association of Scholars, were in favor of a peaceful and civil solution to the crisis.

Lorne wrote:

Instead of complying with tower decisions, they secretly aided a group who seem to wish to kill us all off.

Ma-Ti most certainly didn't "seem to wish to kill us all off". And it's a bit of a long shot when it comes to theories about their motives in general as well, don't you think?

Lorne wrote:

I find this to be an act so enourmously more serious than what you accuse The Horizon of, that it seems to me only people with already established agendas would disagree.

Even if this is so, how does it disqualify the concerns of a new member of our ring that had nothing to do with our disputed decicion?

Lorne wrote:

Your ring willingly, knowingly, completely and indeed still unrepentingly went against a clear, democratic tower decision. Consider this for a moment. Consider the implications. Your ring kept secrets and opposed democracy. Now think about what you think The Horizon did. Do you see the similarities? But The Horizon has been open about this, whereas your ring has not. Can you see why I think it is amazing you have the sheer audacity to write as you do?

If The Horizon were so deceptive, secretive, dangerous and closed about this, I find it strange that they have not only presented all of this to the tower, but have also admitted going too far in their interrogation methods. All of this is just an invitation to any anti-TH'er to bash them, instead of focusing on the real issues. They are honest and open about this, taking a risk to their standing. Doesn't that show you something?

You complain about big rings having secrets? How hypocritical do you think you are allowed to be? The Horizon are open with us, while YOUR ring has tried to keep the Lurker meeting a secret to the rest of the tower. YOUR ring has shielded those of its members who wished to aid the Lurkers. YOUR ring members knowingly went against tower law, trying their best to keep their actions a secret.

I cannot fathom the naivete in your statement about The Horizon's openness. If one of their secrets leaks out and they pretend to be open about it, they're suddenly a paragon of honesty? Didn't you realize how pathetically Sebastian tried to patch up the fact that the actions of his ring had seriously traumatized one of their own members? As a side note, I commend Ishi for her actions during the trial, even though I can't condone her earlier deeds. I wish her luck in finding a place in the tower such that doesn't force her to commit any such crimes again.

Lorne wrote:

How can you possibly get yourself to write as you do, with a clear conscience? Are you really this blind?

I believe that in this case, blindness is in the eye of the beholder.

-- Snipped: several paragraphs of rant and hyperbole. --

Lorne wrote:

I am saddened that it has come to this, that there is no objectivity nor rationality in our views anymore.

In other words, you're insulted by someone disagreeing with you. I recommend a deep breath.

Lorne wrote:

Can't you see that what your ring members did was wrong? Can you look into yourself and honestly say they acted rightly? If so, you are not only beyond a rational discussion, you are also part of a group of people who believe their own opinions supercede democracy.

I believe you're making two matters into one here:

1) Whether what we did was right.

2) Whether we should have followed the "tower's" directions whether or not we're right.

That said, I would also be interested to hear Relay's thoughts on both of these matters. Assuming he hasn't been scared away from these forums by the... judgemental attitudes of some people here. I still think it's a rather rude thing to do, especially to a two-week-old just trying to do some conversation.

Lorne wrote:

Look around - you will find plenty of other groups who share this view. One such group are the Lurkers.

Not to mention the Dreamers of Gaia. Remind me, Lorne, what was the tower's decicion about introducing new species to The Garden again?

122

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Aviah - Society of Free Colonists
10.1.105

Look who's speaking, Klatch...

123

(57 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

New posts.

124

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Klatch - The Electrocuted

Relay - you just don't know anything, do you?

125

(19 replies, posted in TAU Space Message Board)

Bitisururu - The Electrocuted

I think this is related.

(Please ignore my handle. My real name is Awiti.)