Topic: Punishment

Jake - The Watch
11.1.105

Again it's become topical to think about how to treat those who've been seen guilty of crime in our tower. The question is tricky, since we don't have many options at our disposal.

Here are the punishment methods I could think of:

1) Locked in a floatbed. This keeps the criminals from repeating their crimes but we've all seen how dangerous a floatbed malfunction can be. I don't think this should ever be an option.

2) Blockers. Keeps the criminals from doing certain things, like operating most equipment, but won't keep them from, say, joining the Lurkers. Not really useful here.

3) Constant surveillance. Allows the criminals to continue doing their work. However, takes lots of time from those doing the surveillance.

4) Pardon. Not a good idea if we don't want to encourage criminal behaviour.


None of these seem really good. So, I've thought about the little I know about punishment on the old Earth.

1) Death. Not an option.

2) Banishment. To the Lurkers? Outside? Nope.

3) Imprisonment. The floatbeds work as prison but... Anyway, maybe we could build a prison somewhere outside them. Or maybe some kind of a modified blocker that keeps the prisoners from leaving specific areas.

4) Fining. We could remove the possessions of the criminals - all admin bits and tools. This wouldn't keep them from working with the Lurkers, though...

5) Indentured service. We're all basically indentured servants, working in the worst conditions imaginable much of our lives. Being "sentenced" to this would mean nothing.


Any thoughts? We really need to figure this out.

Re: Punishment

Thrayn - Jorian Reformist Party
13.1.105

You raise a valid concern Jake, and do come with suggestions, but I don't think you exhaust the possibilities. I also think you shy away from hard truths.

We punish to make the offender regret what he/she did, so that it is not repeated. We also punish to deter others from committing the same crime. And lastly we punish to make the rest of us feel secure and content in that actions do have consequences. In our tower, all of this is important, critical even, and we should not shirk away from this in order to be 'humane'. Too much misplaced 'humanity' will end us.

Now then, I see the following punishment options for offenders who are judged guilty of endangering our society and/or life.

1. Scientific Experiments - it is no secret that much research of ours would go faster, to the possible benefit of all, if we had more live human subjects who took part in them. It would both deter offenders and help our society, if a punishment method was forced participation in a (naturally as safe as it can be made) scientific program involving some risk.

2. Dangerous work - Some work in the tower is more dangerous than others. Exploration for one. The Prospectors have lost many good men and women charting the tower for us, looking for a way to the Lower Cluster, and so on. The proposed project to explore the outside is just a new continuation of this. Brave men and women will lose live and limbs for this, before it is over. Why not also use those who have been condemned? If they do their part, they will redeem themselves and can return to their old life. If they sustain injuries, then better them than Seeds who have done no wrong.

3. Death. Come on Jake, it IS an option - in the case of unredeemable offenders, murderers and the like, people who do not want to return to tower society, and whose crimes make it impossible to ignore them, I say the death penalty is a very real and sensible option. We are not picking flowers here and sitting in circles hugging each other. We are desperately trying to survive in conditions that are frankly, crazy. We do not have the luxury to not do what is needed. What would you do with someone as wicked as Shamha otherwise? Someone who has killed and schemed to kill so very many completely innocent seeds. She is a security risk for as long as she is alive.

4. Neural Reconfiguration. We are not quite there yet, in terms of technology, but we can do things like this in a cruder way already. For the non-scientific - Neural Reconfiguration techniques, while diverse, focus on changing the recipients personality, conduct, way of thinking. If we can change the offender, so that we can be sure he or she will never do the same again, then that is the best and most efficient way of dealing with a crime. This punishment should aim at making sure the offender does never commit the same offense again, while keeping the utility of the offender as intact as possible. We can make people into near mindless drones, but this will not achieve the desired results. But perhaps, with research, we can reconfigure neural pathways in the brain, so that offenders will not want to commit their crime again, and will have a way of thinking and behaving, that is in harmony with Tower survival. Also, to some, death would be preferable to losing part of their free will (the part of their free will that makes them do crimes against innocents), so it would also serve as a major deterrent to others.

Looking at my suggestions, the first two punish the offender and deter others I think. They also provide some benefit to the tower as a whole, which was the one 'suffering' under whatever crime was committed. However, they do not reform the offender, though they might scare some away from it.

The 3rd option completely solves this problem. Once you are dead, you will not repeat your crime. Also, it is thea good deterrent to others. Unfortunately, it also removes someone whose skills we might have needed.

The 4th option thus seems the best in a perfect Tower, but it does not seem feasible as of yet. If working, it would solve all problems. We would get efficient workers who would not do any more crimes.

That is all I had to say, I leave it up to you to discuss it. I am not saying these options will feel 'humane' - they are what can be done for punishment in an effective way, that will benefit the Tower. They are not suggested to make anyone feel good inside.

Re: Punishment

Ami - Da Vinci Prospectors
15.1.105

Thrayn wrote:

2. Dangerous work - Some work in the tower is more dangerous than others. Exploration for one. The Prospectors have lost many good men and women charting the tower for us, looking for a way to the Lower Cluster, and so on. The proposed project to explore the outside is just a new continuation of this. Brave men and women will lose live and limbs for this, before it is over. Why not also use those who have been condemned? If they do their part, they will redeem themselves and can return to their old life. If they sustain injuries, then better them than Seeds who have done no wrong.

No, no, no! The last thing any prospector would want to do is to babysit some erratic convict with no discipline or honor. The teams are made out of the best material, fit to survive, not the kind of scum that was convicted for endangering the lives of others in the first place. I speak for every prospector on this, and I doubt the Firefighters and other hazard workers are too excited by the prospect either.

Re: Punishment

The Prophet - Society of Free Colonists
15.1.105

Thrayn, I second your suggestions.

Re: Punishment

Jake - The Watch
15.1.105

Thrayn wrote:

3. Death. Come on Jake, it IS an option - in the case of unredeemable offenders, murderers and the like, people who do not want to return to tower society, and whose crimes make it impossible to ignore them, I say the death penalty is a very real and sensible option. We are not picking flowers here and sitting in circles hugging each other. We are desperately trying to survive in conditions that are frankly, crazy. We do not have the luxury to not do what is needed. What would you do with someone as wicked as Shamha otherwise? Someone who has killed and schemed to kill so very many completely innocent seeds. She is a security risk for as long as she is alive.

Correction: It's not an option for a civilized society...

Re: Punishment

The Prophet - Society of Free Colonists
15.1.105

How do you remove posts?

I wonder if it's possible someone could write on these boards unders someone else's name?

Re: Punishment

Ranjit - The Electrocuted
16.1.105

Thrayn wrote:

2. Dangerous work - Some work in the tower is more dangerous than others. Exploration for one. The Prospectors have lost many good men and women charting the tower for us, looking for a way to the Lower Cluster, and so on. The proposed project to explore the outside is just a new continuation of this. Brave men and women will lose live and limbs for this, before it is over. Why not also use those who have been condemned? If they do their part, they will redeem themselves and can return to their old life. If they sustain injuries, then better them than Seeds who have done no wrong.

I'm sorry, Thrayn, but I must say I'm finding this suggestion pretty disturbing. The tower has survived so far because we take on the dangerous jobs as needed, instead of looking for excuses to move them onto the shoulders of others. I wouldn't want to be part of such a cowardly colony myself.