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A nice epitaph for Seed
Posts [ 10 ]
- Darkhawk
- Fluffy harmless Teddy bear
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Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
Ah, always liked the Escapist, great they made that interview, though it's always sad getting reminded about Seed and what was not to be. Oh well 
Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
heh..didnt notice this...just saw a link to it on irc and went to post at the runestone forums...oh well!
anyway, yeah its a pretty good interview!
- Nuala
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Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
Very nice indeed, thanks Hatetank
Anyway.. no news? My fingers really begin to hurt 
- Ahnion
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Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
Definitely a good article... and the comments are the same as they always are - very positive. I really hope Kroll gets his wish to do another MMORPG some day. If I hear about it - and staying in touch with this gang is likely to guarantee that, it will be a given, as I'm sure it is for nearly all of us here.
Role-playing will prevail.
I disagree about the game-play versus storyline bit, though. I don't think they have to be opposed. They're made such through the bare-bone crew tendency among developers (which undoubtedly has financial basis) and the trends of the way games are made today. If you look at PnP roleplaying and at some of the CRPGs that were universally hailed as truly great, you'll find an attitude towards storytelling which is highly compatible with strong game-play. I think it's a classic case of linear thinking in the case of both writers and game developers. The writers have a story that starts and develops according to their set premises, while the game devs have a system that develops according to their pre-planned premises.
Forgotten in all this are the players, whose choices while playing apparently don't count in the eyes of most game devs today.
Both parties need to sit down, together and separately and sketch out a threaded development scheme that not only allows the players to make choices, but builds on that freedom and detail through the inspiration it creates. ("What if...") That's where the advanced bits of the story and game-play come in, and that's where a game can develop from simply another genre-game to something unique and captivating.
RGD must have understood this in some sense, or Seed wouldn't have been the game it was.
Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
I agree to some extent, Ahnion. I'm sure games and storytelling can be combined better than it's usually done. But it is a big challenge to do that because the two are quite a bit opposite to each other.
The best stories are those that are very carefully constucted and thought out, word by word, scene by scene. Changing something in a good story will likely make it worse. That's the challenge of interactive storytelling: how to give choices to the player/viewer so that whatever he or she chooses the end result will be a good story. To get a powerful Aristotelian story arc into a game you must always limit the freedom of the player in some way.
Games, on the other hand, are based on choices and their consequences. It's often the case that giving more options makes the game more interesting (as long as the choices are balanced). Thus, a rigid format of an Aristotelian storyline goes against the ideals of games.
So, what I'm saying is: it's nigh-impossible to make a perfect story that's also a perfect game. So they're not talking total rubbish when they say that. There are very real difficulties to resolve when making a successfull story-game. That's not to say we should give up, though.
- Ahnion
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Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
Kryigerof wrote:
The best stories are those that are very carefully constucted and thought out, word by word, scene by scene. Changing something in a good story will likely make it worse. That's the challenge of interactive storytelling: how to give choices to the player/viewer so that whatever he or she chooses the end result will be a good story. To get a powerful Aristotelian story arc into a game you must always limit the freedom of the player in some way.
This is where I disagree, though I may not have made myself clear. I don't think a classic novel approach works in a game-world - at all. For that kind of narrative, the set format of a novel or a movie is optimal and would make an inferior game by default. (This also applies to PnP scenarios.) Also, the mechanics-only approach of most coding departments ignores the story-telling part of the play. The problem isn't in the talent of the creators, but in that they're biased towards a mode of expression that isn't very practical in creating a really good game.
Let me pull up an analogue that I've talked about before: game soundtracks. Game soundtracks are nearly always made as if they were records to be played, area by area, scene by scene. This is great if you want a soundtrack you can listen to like a CD, but it's a very handicapped and narrow-minded approach to a game. A good approach would be to make a dynamic system with several layers, where different parts of a soundscape come in depending on where you are and what you are doing. Of course, this requires a completely different mindset for the composer, and a deeper involvement with the game itself - which is exactly my point.
With every new medium of expression and communication, the first steps are always rather cautious and reactionary, because noone is really used to what you can actually make of it. This is to be expected - but computer games have been around for a long while now, and various games have shown that is entirely possible to do more than just put a few bits together, if you'll excuse the simplification.
It's not about the technical issues and it's not about the capacities of the game designers - it's about the attitude.
Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
Ahnion wrote:
This is where I disagree, though I may not have made myself clear. I don't think a classic novel approach works in a game-world - at all.
But don't most of the successful story-driven games follow exactly those classic storytelling formats? I'm talking about the Aristotelian story arc with a beginning, middle and end, with major twists in certain places. For example, the much-praised Knights of the Old Republic is a prime example (I act: Taris; first twist: escape from Taris; II act: the other five planets; midpoint: the big revelation; final twist: the big choice; climax: fighting Malak).
And KotOR is great - the interaction between the player choices and the storyline works wonderfully. But I think the people in the acticle - as well as you - were talking about a deeper integration of story and game. KotOR was, after all, based mostly on cut-scenes and dialogue trees. Plus making KotOR was, undoubtedly, several times more difficult than it would have been to make the same story into a traditional format (even without the combat gameplay).
Or did you have some other game in mind as examples of how story and game have worked together in the past?
Ahnion wrote:
For that kind of narrative, the set format of a novel or a movie is optimal and would make an inferior game by default. (This also applies to PnP scenarios.) Also, the mechanics-only approach of most coding departments ignores the story-telling part of the play. The problem isn't in the talent of the creators, but in that they're biased towards a mode of expression that isn't very practical in creating a really good game.
Let me pull up an analogue that I've talked about before: game soundtracks. Game soundtracks are nearly always made as if they were records to be played, area by area, scene by scene. This is great if you want a soundtrack you can listen to like a CD, but it's a very handicapped and narrow-minded approach to a game. A good approach would be to make a dynamic system with several layers, where different parts of a soundscape come in depending on where you are and what you are doing. Of course, this requires a completely different mindset for the composer, and a deeper involvement with the game itself - which is exactly my point.
It could also become extremely complicated very very quickly, if you need to make sure the different layers of the music always play together without creating a cacophony. (It would be easier if the music was very simple, but that's not what we would want.) It just might work with music, but with something as complex as a story...? Barring human direction (= other players / GMs) or scifi AIs, I don't think such a system would be able to create any storytelling near as meaningful and powerful as the traditional stories. Maybe some semi-random artsy stuff, if you're interested in that kind of thing.
Feel free to point me at examples that prove me wrong - I'd much like to be.
Ahnion wrote:
With every new medium of expression and communication, the first steps are always rather cautious and reactionary, because noone is really used to what you can actually make of it. This is to be expected - but computer games have been around for a long while now, and various games have shown that is entirely possible to do more than just put a few bits together, if you'll excuse the simplification.
Which games are you talking about? Seed, I suppose, but what are the others?
I totally agree with you (I think) that multiplayer storytelling hasn't been used to its fullest potential. Even though Seed may not have, on the avarage, produced as interesting stories as the traditional media, the interaction between people and how it affects the narrative is in itself interesting and entertaining.
Ahnion wrote:
It's not about the technical issues and it's not about the capacities of the game designers - it's about the attitude.
True. Though there's still quite a bit of innovation to be done - even if the attitude is right, you might still not figure out how to do it so it works (I'm living proof of that:)).
Last edited by Kryigerof (2006-11-09 01:42:47)
Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
I disagree about the game-play versus storyline bit, though. I don't think they have to be opposed.
You are right - they dont have to be opposed, but currently they are.
The main problem is that gameplay is often in the focus of a dev team simply becuase it is (in my opinion) more easy to make interresting gameplay then createing an interresting story. Not to mention the fact that the idea of even creating a interresting story *in* a computer game (or mmo) is kind of new. The art of creating stories has been around for quite some time compared to the art of creating computer games. Of couse this doesnt mean that we should simply accept the fact that story and gameplay doesnt mix at the time, but it means that it is understandable that we dont see many games with this kind of interaction yet
Re: A nice epitaph for Seed
Gameplay needs to be redefined and possibly reinvented. Too many games follow the same classical approach (for their genre), simply because the creators know it works, and instead of risking their money they play it safe, and use alot of the budget on building a snazzy engine rather than a captivating story. These games lack both gameplay innovation and good stories. And they have very little replay value. But they DO sell 3D engine licenses.
I'm just sick of paying for some game developers "buy-our-new-next-gen-engine"-advertising campaign.
I am personally looking forward to Valve's Portal. Looks like a cracking puzzle/action game, and i haven't seen anything like this ever.
Cheers
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