I have a LAN party again this weekend, which means my ability to play StSC is impaired.  I can be online if needed for the plot, but if we happen to play something intensive, I'll have a high latency in responding.

(Sorry for short notice, I thought we had scheduled it for next week but turned out I was off by one week)

I have to take a look at an apartment on Sunday, about an hour from our usual start time.  So if we play on this Sunday, I'll be about 1:30 late.

Saturday is okay with me.

So, about this week's Sunday...  It's the day before Christmas eve, and I'll be at my parents' again.  I'll likely be tied up in preparations, although there is a chance that I could play for some hours.  Probably better to not count on me being present.

I'm visiting my parents on the weekend of December 16th.  I'm able to play from there, but dinner will probably occur somewhere during the first two hours of the session.

I'm fine with the break.

Christmas itself is unlikely to affect my ability to play, since none of the important days fal on Sunday.  I'll probably be at my parents' for an advent or two during December, but that shouldn't prevent me from playing altogether.  Eating lunch could cause me to be an hour or possibly even two late in such cases.

Advance notice of some upcoming absences:

Nov. 10-11: Father's day, I'll be visiting my parents
Nov. 16-18: Annual gathering at my high school
Nov. 23-25: Possible LAN party with a couple friends

So three absences in the row unfortunately, but that's the price to be paid for weekend games.  I'll try to remind you again in the session on Nov 4.

33

(2 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

Current latest version is 0.9.20.  Files:

http://tdb.fi/~tdb/rpgchat/rpgchat.zip
http://tdb.fi/~tdb/rpgchat/rpgchat_update20.zip

I have a LAN party scheduled for this weekend, which poses a problem for me playing StSC.  The party is at my apartment, so I'll be able to operate the server normally and can possibly even play for a short while or two.  Don't count on me being available to play, though.

Uhm, I'm not so sure a table-based iteration works so well on forums...  Maybe better that we each tell our own and then you collect them to a table?

As said on IRC, I can only play at about 16-22 CEST on weekdays.  In addition, on Tuesday and Friday I have sauna, which will cause a break in playing.  On weekends I'm free.  In table row format:

mon     tue    wed     thu      fri     sat       sun
16-22  bad   16-22  16-22  bad  10-23  10-23

(Edit: Changed times to CEST)

Saturday is fine for me. I'll try to fix multiline biographies before that.

37

(42 replies, posted in Games Discussion)

I guess I can try.  I'm trying to keep an earlier sleep cycle now so I'll have about 3 hours time to play if we start at 19:00 CEST.

I think that should be okay for me.  I have a short job at the diving club at 18:00 EEST, but it shouldn't take more than an hour.

There's a diving trip on this Sunday (2007-08-26) at 16:00 EEST that I'd like to attend.  I generally prioritize one-shot events over recurring ones with a regular schedule, and since I chose StSC the last time, I think it's fair that I get to go diving this time.  I will naturally start the server for you before I go.  In case you want to reschedule, I have a diving trip on Saturday as well (same time), but otherwise I don't have anything scheduled.

Saturday's ok.

41

(7 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

Considering that we skip days of time, transparecy to some extent would be good.  In those days our characters are sure to meet and exchange news.  This would be rather tedious and maybe even boresome to play out - having the not-so-secret scenes transparent allows this news-spreading to happen for free.  It might even outweight the fact that you get to know some things your character wouldn't.  I don't think blocking out OOC-knowledge would be a problem for me anyway.

As for how to implement transparency, I could add an extra flag for that to scenes.  If set on scene creation, it would take all players in as watchers.  They couldn't say anything on the scene until the GM /enters them, preventing interruptions from non-present characters.

No plans for any of those days yet.

43

(16 replies, posted in Games Discussion)

Kryigerof wrote:

Makes sense, but if the effects are only a few here and there, it's worth considering if it's worth it to make a weather model.

Even a simple weather system with few effects will make the world feel more real and give role players something to talk about in a tavern.

Kryigerof wrote:

Unless travelling is really a very rare event, the GMs will never have the resources to make every trip interesting. It'd have to be generated in some repeated way.

There would of course be random bandit attacks and such.  By "meaningful" I meant something that actually ties into the story of the game, and that's something that can't really be done randomly.  I plan on making GM tools that can be used to pre-script events that will be triggered by certain player actions, such as traveling on some road.

Kryigerof wrote:

This will not work well with permadeath. Even if this rudimentary logic always manages to find the safest possible action to take (which running all the way through a dungeon alone won't be), the player will still call it "death due to disconnect" if the character dies. (Of course, any way of handling combat that prevents cowardly logouts will be problematic in this way. It's permadeath that makes this a major issue.)

This is especially hard since some forms of disconnection are not possible to detect instantly.  If a router in between dies, it can take 10 minutes before the TCP session timeouts and the server sees a disconnection.  Active pinging of clients will help this somewhat, but due to possible lag the disconnect timeout still has to be on the order of a minute.

This question clearly calls for some more thought and possibly testing.

Kryigerof wrote:

You might not notice it but the effect will still be there and it will take away just as much of your work, whether you use it semi-regularly or not (assuming degradation/day is the same no matter what you do).

What if the degradation effect wouldn't even start until you haven't used the skill for a week?

Kryigerof wrote:

I mean if they never make the conscius choice to add risk to their game, they should be in no danger, ever. And they should still be able to have a full experience. Taking a risky job can be considered such a choice, but there should be enough variety of jobs with no danger.

The problem, usually, is that to get XP you have to constantly do dangerous things. Well, you can always keep doing things below your level and gain XP much slower, but still there's always the chance you run into that wolf with the adjective before its name that you can't yet handle. The chance of running into this "dire bastardly badass wolf" is usually way greater than the chance of getting into said car accident, which is why most games need stupid resurrection systems just to keep their players from giving up the game.

My plan is to drop the concept of abstract experience points completely.  If you want to learn fighting, you'll have to fight.  There will be mentors who allow you to do this safely, however to be the champion you'll have to do some real fighting too.  You also can't reach grandmaster level by only fighting goblins, since once you learn all their tricks, there's nothing more to learn.  I don't know how well this works out since I haven't really played a game with such a system (I should try though), but we'll see.

Kryigerof wrote:

The problem often is that if you don't have a great OOC knowledge of, say, the different monster types, it's often difficult to assess, without trial and error, if you're high-level enough to kill the wolf with the bigger adjective than the ones you killed before. In real-life it's difficult too, but at least you have a life-long experience of living in the world to help you. (And if you do die you won't be able to complain to the developers about it. Unless God exists, in which case His life probably sucks.)

There can be in-game sources of such knowledge, such as libraries or mercenary veterans.

And then some comments to what others have said:

The day cycle has to be considerably shorter than 24 hours in order for players being able to fully experience the game with the character class they have chosen.  We can't restrict playing a thief to those that can stay awake through the night.  If we consider that an average working person has maybe 6 to 8 hours to play per day if he's dedicated, a day cycle of 2 to 4 hours becomes very reasonable.

As for the target group, it has to be something I belong in.  I'm not a hardcore role player, but I dislike the repetitiveness and implausibility of standard MMORPGs.  I want to create something that feels like it's alive and where your actions have a meaning.  There probably will be some randomly-generated reptitive content where it fits (playing a smith's apprentice and he gives you tasks to do).  I try to avoid exploitable mechanics and any undisputable best items that you get by killing the same dragon 10 times in a row.  I also try to avoid a situation where there'll be absolutely nothing to do because all GMs are sleeping.  So the game will be geared towards role playing, but not at the far end of the axis.

Tantavalist's idea of a skill system sounds interesting.  I'll see if I can utilize that somehow.  I still don't like abstract XP though.  Maybe you could train to high levels all by yourself, but doing it that way would be slow (since you'll make much more mistakes).  Utilizing the help of a master and, with some skills, also a library, you could considerable speed up your training.

I'll be leaving to a diving camp early tomorrow, so I won't be able to respond for a few days.

44

(16 replies, posted in Games Discussion)

Indeed.  I can do meshes to some extent (although not very high quality ones, especially of living beings), but I totally suck at making textures.  I'd prefer a more skilled modeler though.

45

(16 replies, posted in Games Discussion)

I'd like to note that the current list of possible rules is more or less a list of (somewhat processed) thoughts I've had.  Not all may be implemented to begin with and some may be dropped or significantly altered during testing.  It's still more like a notepad than the beginning of an actual rulebook.

Kryigerof wrote:

Here are a few comments on your rules:

tdb wrote:

No numeric values visible for players, unless they can be measured in-game
(1 kg chunk of metal etc).

Would you be using adjectives instead or completely hiding the numerical mechanics from the players, letting them estimate their skills based on their prior performance? The latter might actually be interesting and even bring some sort of realism.

I've been thinking of adjectives so far.  I might go for not showing any indication of skill at all.  Time will tell.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Weather that actually affects the game mechanics.

This would be relevant if the game is focused on, say, farming, very tactical combat or... maybe sailing. If it's there only to add a -1 to the arrow rolls in the regular D&D style combat, then it's not worth implementing IMO.

It would also be relevant to metallic armor and weapons rusting in rain if not cared for properly.  Also getting frostbite / sunburn if not dressed properly.  (Finally an RPG where you can't go around all year in your chainmail bikini!)  Naturally there will be combat effects as well, from various kinds of weather.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Cycle of day and night, compressed to 2 hours.

Pretty standard, I suppose, though as far as I know people (even roleplayers) hardly ever care about the time of day when they decide what they do. It also results in conversations lasting for several days in a row.

In most games the cycle is purely visual.  I intend to have it affect your ability to see and the activity of animals and NPCs.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Sense of distance, no instant traveling between remote cities via conventional
means.

I'd like this. Though there should be some ways to make travelling interesting so people won't just log off (or multitask if that's not possible) while doing it. Maybe some random encounters (other than random attacking monsters) and definately the ability to talk with your group.

Talking with your group will definitely be possible.  Meaningful random encounters will need some GM power to at least set them up, but they would be nice too.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Possible to buy a private apartment or house.  Others can't get in without
invitation.

Ruling out thievery? A good call if that's not the focus, since I understand thievery can cause a lot of OOC trouble.

Ruling out unnecessary frustration of players when a local thieves' guild decides to plunder everyones' prized possessions during night just for the fun of it.  If I could control the type of players that get in the game, I'd leave PvP thievery an open option as well.  But in an open-for-everyone MMORPG there just has to be some limitations on PvP actions.

I might add an option to make your apartment vulnerable if you're ready to deal with the consequences.  Maybe roleplayer cities where this will be mandatory.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Need to camp / get a room at an inn / go to your apartment to log out.  Camp is possible to spot with high enough skill, but is untouchable.

Automatic camping on client disconnect? Are there uncampable places?

On link death there would be some rudimentary logic on what to do - if near enough to an apartment or a paid-for inn room, the character would automatically go there.  If in the wilderness, he would camp.  Uncampable places could exist if they logically fit there, haunted ruins or some such.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Base physical abilities: strength, stamina, agility, dexterity

Base mental abilities: intelligence, memory, wisdom, perception

Vast amount of skills, grouped in a tree.  Possible to get a quick glance at
a group of skills as whole, or a detailed view of the individual skills.

Skills benefit from each other.

Vast amount of skills suggest a vast amount of game-mechanics to make those skills useful. I'd rather have the exact amount of skills needed for the game mechanics in place. (And the exact amount of game mechanics to implement the core concept.)

It basically means that there's no need to try and force different actions under the same skill.  Some skills are also quite closely related - for example, there would be separate skills for forging swords, hammers, axes and so on.  Since they don't differ by much, they get significant bonuses for each other.  If you know how to make a sword, there's a good chance you can make an axe too, even if you've never made an axe before (assuming you know what an axe is like).  When a new skill is added to the "weaponsmithing" group, it would get an automatic base value according to the other skills in the same group.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Improve skills by training.  Possible to teach skills to others up to 80% of
own skill.

Would training be time-based (Seed/EVE) or would you have to stand around beating some dummy? The same about teaching: would you have to stand around doing some repeated teaching actions or would you just set some sort of a teacher/student relationship and have it take effect over time?

What would be the most efficient way to train skills? I hope it's not killing huge amounts of animals/bandits/monsters. Personally I like time-based systems, because they don't cause such huge caps between the skills of the more regular and less regular players.

Possibly both.  Since this is not a sci-fi environment, it doesn't make sense to learn about building houses while you cook.  So to learn from a master cook, you would need to stay in the same room as the master and observe and listen to him cooking.  If both master and student(s) are players, they are free to talk and possibly do a limited number of other things (depending on skill being trained).  Or log off and let the characters train for the day (in a safe place).  The balance in training speed needs to be found through trial and error.

As for the most efficient way, this is a learn-by-doing system.  I'll try to make sure you can't get to be a master cook by baking bread for three months - you'll have to make a wide variety of different recipes.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Degradation when not used for a long time: down to 1/2 of highest value.
Relearn at triple speed.

Please use this only if skill training is also time-based. Grind-based skill learning combined to time-based skill degradation is like two punches in the face of the less regular player.

Degradation would be sufficiently slow that you would not notice it for the skills that you use at least semi-regularly.  It's intended to encourage skill specialization and discourage every player trying to do everything by himself.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Different types of magic: runic, spiritual, elemental

Here, I believe, you're designing the world from the wrong end again. First decide what the world is all about, and only then think about what magics (if any) fit in there.

That said, some sort of a ritualistic magic system might be great for RP...

See comment at top of this post.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

Unaware of surroundings while sleeping, but may wake up to noise.

And what would the player get to do while sleeping? Stare at the empty screen, in case of the random wolf attack?

What about letting people roleplay their going to sleep/waking up during this mandatory resting time, but skipping the actual sleeping part?

The amount of required sleep will be sufficiently small that it's bearable.  Besides, it's healthy for the player to take a break too.  There could be an audible alarm on a random attack (possibly a short while before it) so the player can go to read a book / surf the web and still get back to the game in time to react.

Skipping the actual sleeping would lead to major temporal inconsistencies in a MMO environment.  To a bystander, it would still seem that the character went into his room weary and came back two minutes later well-rested.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

*** Death

Death is permanent by default, the dead character can't just resurrect himself.

Resurrection is possibly, but sufficiently rare that players need to think
thrice bfore doing anything foolhardy.

Reduction of physical abilities on resurrection, amount depends on time spent
dead.

Permadeath needs to be handled very carefully, due to the great possibility of frustration -> players quitting. Some possible ways to handle it:
a) The game/world is all about death, for example a realistic war story. The players will know this when they enter and thus accept death more readily (at least in my theory).
b) You can always avoid death 100%. Risking your life might get you greater rewards but is never required to get ahead in the game.
c) You can never die of lag/disconnect/bugs. This applies even when using a, b or both.
d) Let the player keep all/some of the advancement of the character, giving bonuses to the next character. The next character can be a heir or something but that's not necessary.

By saying "always avoid death 100%" I assume you mean the game (or rather GMs) should give give choices in the plot that allow players to choose an easier path, and not that players should always be able to get alive from every situation they got themselves into.

Getting forward in life means different risks for different people.  I might have a one in ten thousand chance of getting into a car accident during my daily trip to work - a fireman might have a one in then chance of getting injured during a difficult rescue mission.  In a "free" MMO world, what actually is getting forward?  A mercenary's life has considerably more risks than a cook's.

I agree though, that too easy permadeath (or too easy death at all, for that matter) is going to cause frustration.  Whatever I finally decide on this though, I want to discourage players from just trying things to see if they're too strong, or engaging some boss a dozen times until the dice finally roll in their favor.

Kryigerof wrote:
tdb wrote:

*** Communication

Only "vicinity" channel (including whisper and shout) available without spells.

Magically enhanced items allow communication over long distance.

I'd add an OOC channels (public and private) where people can arrange "chance" meeting and such. Otherwise people will just move such communications to IRC.

That has the problem of players using it for actual IC communication.  Of course, so does IRC.  This again is an issue of not being able to control the players' actions.  I will think about whether or not to include an OOC channel.

46

(16 replies, posted in Games Discussion)

Sekra wrote:

I'm definitely interested in this project. Just took a quick glance at the rules and it's looking very very good imo. Few things I would like to discuss about but nothing major. I have studied sound engineering a few years back and I can produce "studio quality" music and currently I'm studying software engineering at Savonia Univerisity of Technology (Savonia-amk, tietotekniikan insinööri, erikoistun ohjelmointiin [to be more specific]). There is also a very dedicated WoW fan/player in my group and he also seems to be a pretty talented artist. I'm not sure if he is any good with computer graphics but I've seen some of his drawings and they're pretty good.

Excellent, so that would be the sound effects problem solved then, I hope.  If your friend can do 3D graphics and you're still in touch when I get around to starting this project, that would be great.  I could use help with programming as well, if you can get your skills good enough by that time.

Sekra wrote:

The thing I'd like to see in an mmorpg is the sense that the world is HUGE. Like if you would go from town to town walking it could take days or even weeks (ingame of course) to get there. I know it is an issue related to the fact that the game should be enjoyable but if you take the medieval times for example, not that many people travelled half the world. It was the rich who could afford to travel at all.

This is one of my goals.  It was incorporated in the "sense of distance" sentence in the World section of the rules.  There would be magical means of fast transportation, but it would be expensive.  Possibly some sort of "airbus" service with flying creatures as well, we'll see.

I also intend to have a random detail generator, so the world designers won't need to spend hours to plant trees in a huge forest.

Sekra wrote:

Also another thing would be some sorts of mutating diseases. What I've been thinking related to this which I will explain very simply is that there would be x amount of effects on a disease. Then the disease and/or effects would have a mutation factor, infecting factor, incubation time and the possibility that the disease remains hidden. Lets say your char gets infected with disease A which is a common flu. As effects it has fever and cough. During the incubation time he also gets infected with a more serious virus B. The it would be possible for these two diseases to mutate together to form a disease C with effects from A and B. Of course it would require a lot more complex system than that and the possibility to do research on the diseases too. And that would depend a lot on the world concept of course.

Interesting idea.  I added a short section on diseases to the rules.  I have to discard the "crossbreeding" idea on the grounds of not being biologically sound and likely to sooner or later resulting in a "mega-disease" with all possible effects, which could not evolve any further.  I will see if I can think up some sort of mutation system though.

Sekra wrote:

Also one thing has troubled me in most fantasy settings and its the "racism" in almost everyone. One original idea could be that if there are different races to play, the world would be divided into different "countries" like the real world instead of just different races fighting each others. In my opinion that would make a bit more sense than the usual "every orc is a spawn of evil and cannot be nothing but evil" setting. And it would bring diversity to the game. Of course there could be areas that are more populated with a certain race depending on the type of vegetation for example.

Have you given any thought on the world concept at all? Fantasy, sci-fi? There's a lot I'd like to discuss about this matter. And I'm too tired to write more now. Maybe some tomorrow.

It will be fantasy (as indicated by the presence of magic), but not more than that.  My imagination is seriously lacking when it comes to designing a world.  I will start to see patterns everywhere and try to systematically avoid them, which will result in its own sort of pattern.

Kryigerofe suggested a settler concept where the players would set out to inhabit a new continent.  This would be good to explain the appearance of new players (new settlers arrive on ships) and it would be easy to keep the number of NPCs relatively low.  On the other hand, it pretty much disallows any sort of pre-existing countries and nations.

If you have your own world concept, do tell.  I don't necessarily use any single world concept verbatim, but possibly use elements from multiple ones.  The settler concept could be combined with an "old world" for example, with a distance too huge for even the most powerful magic, so it would take players a week of realtime to travel between the two...

Darkhawk wrote:

And tdb, Sandling suggested you check out polycount.com for gfx people.. The sites I was thinking about were all danish sites it turns out.

Thanks, that looks like it could be of some use.  I'll see about making a post there when I know I'll start the project.

47

(16 replies, posted in Games Discussion)

I've been thinking of starting my own MMORPG some day.  As some of you may know, I've had two unsuccessful attempts at making an MMORPG so far.  First one was to be with 3D graphics, but finally died due to a chronic lack of graphics designer and the evolution of my programming skills over the two and half years.  Second one was to utilize ASCII graphics and be playable over telnet, but we started designing the ruleset from the wrong end.  Again my coding skills have evolved so much that this code is practically unusable.

To avoid past mistakes, this time I want to get some kind of complete picture of what the game is going to be like before I even start, as well as have people who are capable of doing the graphics and sounds, should such things be needed.  The focus of the game would be in role playing, not combat (although combat will be included too for completeness of the world).  There are some preliminary thoughts of rules at http://tdb.fi/~tdb/rpgrules.txt.  Anything and everything is open to discussion, but I reserve the final say on the final rules.  There is no world concept yet, and the style of graphics is undecided as well.

NOTE: At best, it will probably be a year or so before I start writing any code.  At worst, I might never start.  So do not ask anything about schedule, and don't be disappointed if you never get to play this game.

NOTE 2: I tend to update my rules document when I post new thoughts here, so be sure to check it again every now and then.

I agree with the majority here that the player should be aware of the risk of possibly dying.  If at all possible story-wise, he should be warned about it by some other character if he doesn't realize the risk himself.

I'm not sure how I'll react to having to create a new character though, since I'm playing myself and creating an identical character would be quite lame.  But let's worry about that if the time comes (I have no intentions of dying).

Either is fine for me, although friday is perhaps a little bit mre sure to be free.

50

(8 replies, posted in Seed: The Second Chance)

Mike:

http://www.tdb.fi/~tdb/stsc-mike.jpg http://www.tdb.fi/~tdb/stsc-mike-rci.jpg

(Left: Portrait - Right: Mike at work with his RCI)

Long hair, halfway down the back.
Average height, slender.

Usually rather quiet, but may occasionally talk in great length about an interesting subject.  Prefers the company of people he knows; does not actively seek new social contacts.